INT: If you need to give [actors] adjustments? Where, what are the--What’s usually the nature of that kind of adjustment? Assuming that they’re, they haven’t totally missed it but there’s, there’s something a little off.

JS: Well again, it, it goes into the area of reminding them what their objective is, what their--What does the character going through emotionally? How does it relate to the person that’s in the scene with ‘em or the people that’s in the scene with ‘em? If it’s necessary to revamp and revisit all of the specifics that you already have talked about, just as a refresher, you’re going to that…Or it could be things like, its more than you need. Things like: change that cross, forget going to the window, go to the couch instead, or vice versa. This is putting your other Actor in the wrong light, you know. [INT: Technical.] Sometimes it’s as technical as that. Or the Cameramen will say, “Hey…” You know. [INT: Right.] He missed it or…So it is an enormous amount of communicating that has to go on even during the, during the shooting of the scene. Not while we’re shooting of course, but…

INT: What do you do--Producers, and the issue while your shooting. What’s the relationship going on there?

JS: Well for the most part, Producers tend to stay back and out of the way. They exercise their creativity, or their sense of creativity and their frustration at perhaps not having enough opportunities to be creative. They usually exercise that after you’ve been through the trenches, after the first cut. And I must say that because of the Guild [DGA], the agonies I used to go through as an episodic Director and even a two-hour Director, with keeping the Producers out of the editing room after shooting it; not giving me a chance to put it together. The bill of rights [DGA Bill of Creative Rights] did a marvelous job of corralling and then proscribing the editing room away from the Producers so at least you’re given a shot at putting it together the way you felt it and the way your vision directed you to do it. It wasn’t always that way, and other than that, the role of Producer varies according to, I suppose, the level of program and content that you’re dealing with, and studio that you’re working for. Most executives now are far more credentialed than they used to be. If they have passed muster on being hired because--Not because they have an MBA, and a lot of them do, but because they know story, because they’ve worked with either theatre or film in one capacity or another, or they’re graduates, some of them with MA’s [Masters], from film school. Now, that has its disadvantages as well because the other executives that you work with and for, these days, that have been through film school, fashion them--They fashion themselves really after, well, into a life of directing one way or another. And sometimes out of their own frustration, they want--They can’t wait to get their hands on the film that you just busted your ass to direct. But this is the reality of it, and its always been that way too, but there has been a proliferation of, sad proliferation of Producers on a picture, but we can get into that later. [INT: Yeah.]

INT: One more question just that of these characters that are around. In terms of agents in your life, have they made a difference? [JS: Now, you mean a personal agent--] Yeah. [--That’s represent…] Yeah.

JS: Well in this case, I’m fortunate enough to have the same agent for 43 years. [INT: Wow.] Which is pretty rare. Marty Shapiro is my agent and he’s been very good for me and we’ve…We’re both shocked at how long we’ve been together. So I’ve, I’ve been very lucky in terms of having the correct relationship with an agent. [INT: And what is that? I mean, you’re incredibly lucky and rare, but how would you define that?] Well, I don’t know. I guess its because of the, the way Marty has handled, you know, fought for the necessary bumps and raises and…And he does, he sets up the whatever caveats and conditions we need contractually, etcetera. And he’s always, you know, he’s been sharp about it. [INT: Right.] And people take to him, which helps. And so its been, you know, its been, a nice relationship over the years. [INT: Great.]

INT: I wanna do, I wanna--I wanna try something which I haven’t done before. I wanna mention like five or six, maybe seven films, and whatever memory comes up about that film, I’d like you to, you know, anything. 'Cause we, the only thing we haven’t quite talked about is post production, now that we’ve talked a little bit about that you work with the Editor during the time of the work itself. But just, so in any of these, just tell--You know, anything comes up in your mind, just, you know, any particular memory, just share it and lets see what happens. I’ve never tried this but I wanna see what happens. [JS: Sure. Sure, lets do it.] I’m gonna--I’ll start--Let me see where we should do this, let me think where. Let’s just--In fact, well lets start, and, you know, and we’ll work our way back, just from SOMETHING THE LORD MADE. Anything comes to mind and jumps into your head about the making of this picture for you?

JS: Well, I swore a long time ago that I would never do biographies of anybody whose been dead for less than 200 years. Simply because there’s always an addendum of problems that come from living errors and survivors and colleagues, etcetera. And, we had our share of problems because this is a picture about a man whose only been dead, maybe a decade. Two men who’ve only been dead somewhere between 10 to 15 years. They both made an incredible contribution, an that was what the story is about, in terms of operating on the human heart. And, and of course that was the reason it appealed to me as well as to the executives at HBO. And this--But, you have to deal with the heirs. You have to deal with the wives that are still living, you have to deal with the doctors at Johns Hopkins [The Johns Hopkins Hospital], all of whom who claim they were his colleagues. And all of whom become experts on what should be in the script and what shouldn’t. Now, we had to have a serious conversation, and it involved a big conference as a matter of fact, with most of those doctors who were raising objections to everything. Didn’t happen that way, they would never say “fuck” in those days; that kind of language wasn’t allowed, Doctors never express themselves that way. All of those generalities you know is, is horse shit. You know. And its amazing how eventually we were able to straighten all of that out. Primarily, and the thing that was in our favor, is that Vivien Thomas wrote an autobiography. Vivien is the Black assistant that guided the chief of surgery through he operation, as you know. Well Thomas wrote an autobiography detailing how Doctor Blalock [Dr. Alfred Blalock] used precisely those words.

INT: Now, let me ask you, I think what will be more--I mean, I realize there’s lots of stuff that can come up. Lets do this in terms of the actual shoot, if there’s anything that stands out for you in the shoot. Lets do that, and use that ex--I mean, obviously that’s a problem that one has to face when one is making a biography. But lets use the couple examples. If anything on the shoot sort of comes up, whether it was a problem of, we couldn’t get this location, and how we solved that, or, you know, the Actor fell out and I suddenly had to…Anything, you know, in the shoot that you, that sort of comes to your mind, in any aspect of you as Director.

JS: Well, it’s interesting, when you come--when you try to think of things, they all kind of blend together don’t they? What…[INT: Were there casting issues for that one or, for example, the staging of the operation scenes? Were those new challenges for you? I’m, you know, I’m looking for, you know, you as a Director, sort of what may have been…] Well, cause we, we were fortunate in having all the technical help we wanted because they were all there, you know. We were, we were shooting actually in Johns Hopkins [The Johns Hopkins Hospital], except for the operating room itself. That was a set, and the reason, to go back to why you shoot in a set, is because that operating room doesn’t exist anymore, and that style of room doesn’t exist anymore at Johns Hopkins, so we had to build it. [INT: Did you build it there?] We built in the sound stage. [INT: But, but where?] In, in, where were we? In Baltimore. [INT: That’s what--Okay.] Yeah. [INT: And they have them there, obviously.] Yeah, or sure, yeah. Well it’s the sound stage that was part of the, the production office as well, you know. So it was a nice little, compact area. In terms of problems…[INT: Or challenges?] Well the whole thing was a challenge. [INT: Because?] Well, because we had to achieve a level of, a level of dynamic interplay between Mos [Mos Def] and Alan [Alan Rickman] on subject matter that was essentially very technical. And, you know, medical terms. Which by the way, both of them jumped in with both feet and, got into very beautifully. It wasn’t easy maintaining a happy atmosphere all the time because both men were rather uptight about achieving the kind of believability that all this technical jargon had to be achieved. But they did it. They did it beautifully.

INT: When--And its interesting you said that when you felt their tightness, was there anything that you could do to aid that, or did you just have to work with it?

JS: I had to work with it, somewhat. You know, there’s…Of course, you know, encouragement always helps and if the tightness…In one instance, Mos [Mos Def] absolutely refused to go into the men’s room that said “colored” as opposed to “whites only.” The script was built on the metaphor of having a wall between the white bathroom and the colored bathroom, and they each had to go separate ways when they both went to the urinals, right? And carried on a conversation non-stop through a vent between the, you know, the two rooms in the wall. And the author, was a brilliant choice on part of the author, but Mos was convinced that his was heavy handed and unnecessary, and he was pointing to a paragraph in Vivien Thomas’ autobiography where he said he’s always used the men’s room, the white men’s room, because of a relationship with Blalock [Dr. Alfred Blalock], etcetera. Now this led to an incredible amount of conversations, and telephone calls to the west coast. And finally we said, “Now, wait a minute. How do we resolve this? Because I certainly think it’s a brilliant choice on the part of the writer. You don’t.” He says, “Well…” He says, “Why don’t I go into the white room as we should go in, as in fact Doctor Thomas did go into, and then when I quit later on, go into the, into the colored bath--You know, cause I want the relationship to end, etcetera, etcetera.” That turned out to be an excellent solution. Now, perhaps, I mean there’s still controversy as to whether the other one was more effective because of the metaphor or the wall that separates, etcetera. But this was emotionally, just as valuable because what we see is the two men going, white and Black, going into a white bathroom with another Doctor who reacts unfavorably to it. Then we see the white Doctor having to be forced to go into the Black bathroom, to reclaim that relationship. So, it was a good solution. It was a good compromise. [INT: That’s terrific.]

INT: OUT OF ASHES [OUT OF THE ASHES], in the shoot of that, what comes up as a memory or memories that were either challenges or, or rewards while you were shooting in OUT OF ASHES?

JS: The rewards was working with, with Christine Lahti and all the Actors. They were wonderful. The penalty for those rewards was working with a Production Manager slash Producer that was terribly unqualified for the job, and who made all of our lives miserable because he was a flunky and didn’t really understand what the needs--Could care less what the needs of the production were. And because of a lot of shenanigans that went on in terms of the Lithuanian owner of the studio, he was given the wrong information, and he gave them the wrong bid, and we were all paying the price. [INT: That’s interesting though, 'cause the issue of, you know, we’ve been talking a lot about the creative natures of how you work, and then here’s this. I remember talking to you about this. And here’s the reality of the pragmatic nature of getting something done and how that can be so disheartening.] Well, luckily we tended to transcend that, that roadblock. But it, it’s, it took the fun out of it. It took, you know, really, when you’re fighting adversarialy with a man who should be helping you, a man who should be better credentialed, instead of trying to--

INT: Here’s a question. I’m with you on this. The question is: When you’re making a movie, and cause this applies to this, and you’ve done a number of movies about subjects that are difficult to deal with... I’m curious, emotionally, where you are, for example, this particular movie. I mean, now you’re in this world, this a not a pleasant world to have to be exposed to…I mean, I realize we have the benefit of being the Director of it, but at the same time, your in it. It’s like I dislike shooting in jails, personally, cause I feel like I’m in jail. I’m curious what--when, in OUT OF ASHES [OUT OF THE ASHES], whether that hit you at any time in terms of…?

JS: Well it was very painful shooting, in Auschwitz, although we weren’t in Auschwitz. Again, we had a whole set built on the back lot, brilliantly I might add. Jeff Ginn was the Production Designer. But to see the smoke coming out of those chimneys, and to see those ladies lined up for inspection, knowing that they’re all gonna be put in the oven, that they’re all gonna be part of that smoke, was a little, a little unsettling. And everybody felt it. And then of course we just had to go on with the job, but it was interesting how the ghosts were there for us. We were on the back lot of a Lithuanian studio, you know. However, we were also within a hundred miles of the actual Auschwitz, in Poland. But, so it was, it was something that we had, you know, that I had to keep away from being distracted by. The other thing that happened was we, we were doing a sequence where the Germans had to smash a few shop windows and had “JEW” pointed--painted over it and everything else. And we’re gonna shoot it on Monday morning, and of course on Sunday, the dresses went in and put up all the signs on the windows and the boards, the boarding up of broken windows and they parked the German trucks ready to be occupied, etcetera. The town went crazy. People who didn’t know it was for a movie, they thought it was a celebration of Hitler’s birthday, which happened to be that same day. [Laughs] And we found out that all of the, the activity on the part of the townsfolk wasn’t always negative, it was very positive. They thought it was a wonderful idea that we were celebrating his birthday. [INT: Great, great.]

INT: Let’s talk about BOJANGLES. We’ve both had the gift of working with him [Gregory Hines]. [JS: Yeah.] Wonderful human being. Anything come up for you in the shooting of that? Different kind of--We, I mean you’ve done a coup--number of musical pieces so that you--

JS: I loved it. I loved it. And, I had to make an adjustment cause I stepped into a faux pas. There’s Gregory brought this wonderful old Choreographer, [Henry LeTang] a tap master to choreograph the stuff for himself. And there was one of those sequence where two of the young Actors had to dance in the street. It’s Bojangles [Bill "Bojangles" Robinson] as a little boy. And he and his little buddy would be dancing. So unthinkingly, the day before we shot it, I saw the routine a little bit and, that he had set up. And then I later thought, “Oh I can do it, get a better angle or a better something or other if I change it to this.” Well, I gotta blistering call from Gregory about how disrespectful I was to the Choreographer, etcetera, etcetera. And I said, “Well, my god, that certainly isn’t what I had in mind,” etcetera. So I assured him I was gonna call and apologize, which I did. But I didn’t realize the sensitivity of where the Choreographer’s job ends and a Director’s job begins. Because you assume that, you know, a harmful little change--I mean a harmless little change in the choreography to satisfy some other directorial need would be okay. Well, ho ho ho! Now I’ve worked in musicals before with choreo--But it never got to a, there was never a point in any of my previous experience where I had to change anything, you know, choreographically. 'Cause, it usually stays, stays separate. [INT: I’m curious about this because I just, this last thing I did had a bunch of choreography numbers, but I was there as they were being choreographed 'cause I was very concerned how they were gonna be shot and how’d they be done and these kids were not professional dancers, etcetera, etcetera. It’s interesting here... Was it; do you think it was because Gregory had such respect for that man?] Oh, absolutely. [INT: And that it was not--] It was more than respect; it was almost a fatherly love. But, he was right. It’s just, you know, it was, it was unconscious of course, it was never meant to be a critical thing at all, but it was somewhat insensitive of me to not be aware of it. Not to even think about it. Somewhat insensitive. It was so unintentional that, you know, it, you can…[INT: Did Gregory get that? I mean, did it ease of or did it take a little while?] Oh yeah, oh sure. He understood. [INT: Great, great.] Yeah.

INT: FOR LOVE OR COUNTRY [FOR LOVE OR COUNTRY: THE ARTURO SANDOVAL STORY], the, any--also, dealing a lot with music here too. But anything particular that jumps to mind on this pa--in the shoot of this one, picture?

JS: Well, again the fortunate thing about LOVE OR COUNTRY [FOR LOVE OR COUNTRY: THE ARTURO SANDOVAL STORY] is a guy named Andy Garcia, who’s wonderful to work with. However, I had to shoot it in the thick of the Cuban community in Miami at a time when…what’s the boys name [Elián González]? [INT: Yeah, yeah, the little kid, yeah, yeah. The minor--I know who you’re talking about. Yeah, Yeah] The kid, yeah. So it was a volatile period and we had a sequence where Arturo Sandoval, played by Andy, was coming from Cuba and he steps off the Cubana Airline plane, etcetera, and there’s a later scene where, where he’s traveling to the United States on American Airlines. So, to save money, and of course to save an unnecessary duplication, we had Cubana Airlines on one side of the plane, and American Airlines on the other. Well, soon there was demonstration, a volatile demonstration slapped around the airport because the word got out that a plane was being brought in from Cuba, a Cubana Airlines plane, to somehow deliver or to take the boy, or they weren’t sure, you know. It was very suspicious, etcetera. What they didn’t do was walk around to the other side of the plane and see that it’s, it wasn’t Cubana Airlines. Things like this, you know, they spice up a shoot, but you don’t need those problems. There are enough problems.

INT: That’s interesting…I wanna talk about music for a second here, because both the work with Gregory [Gregory Hines] and this one, are both have musical numbers in them. In the one case, you have no problems; Gregory knows what he’s doing. In the other case, I don’t know if Andy [Andy Garcia], I don’t know what his music—

JS: No, Andy had to learn every valve move and then what he would do, what we had to do, he was coached, of course, all the way through rehearsal [FOR LOVE OR COUNTRY: THE ARTURO SANDOVAL STORY]. And he worked hard, he really had too because it involves not just faking things like this, but where he’s breathing. And, so he had to learn where the breath was as well as what valves to push. So when we were shooting some of the playing, his coach would stand just off camera calling out numbers, valve one, two, or three, and breathe. And he would use those three com--four commands as he was playing. So Andy had to stay in the roll, listen to his commands from the coach, you know, and make sure he looked like he was blowing. Which he did, by the way. I told him, “Don’t fake the blowing, you gotta see it all here [motions to throat] and the cheeks, and everything.” And what came out in dailies of what he was doing with that horn, nobody should have to listen to. [Laughs]

INT: Now, in choosing the music…Now, it’s interesting ‘cause they’re two issues. I’m curious whether music occupies you at all during shoot--Now obviously in these, it did. But I’m curious in the other films. Are you aware, are you thinking, or are--or that’s coming later, except for obviously what you prerecords that you need for your show. Where does your head go about music? Is that something that I--Wait’ll I get an edited version, or are you thinking about it in the process at all?

JS: Well, first of all, you’re dealing with playback on every scene, so the music is there [FOR LOVE OR COUNTRY: THE ARTURO SANDOVAL STORY] in the dailies even when Andy Garcia is blowing all those false notes. He has to have a click track or a music track to, to stay in--[INT: I guess what I was referring to is underscore for you. Do you--'Cause these specifically are pretty--and that’s the nature of that kinda film. But, I’m curious when underscore becomes, when you become aware of it. Where, where does your mind get to? Is music something that you are allowing to enter your mind, even while your shooting? I’m not talking about where it’s required, but in terms of just your thoughts, in for example when your Editor is editing while you’re shooting. Do you ask him to put some music into the rough cut for you?] Sometimes. [INT: You do.] Sometimes, yeah. Temp music can help us all gauge what, whether a scene needs any more or le--A word about music, while we’re on this. I’m a minimalist as far as music is concerned. I hate wall-to-wall scores, with a passion. I try desperately to talk the front office, the Producers, all of whom think that more music means more production value, which is ridiculous, it’s, you know, it’s a misconception. A lot more music than you need is more than you need. Again, it--and it tends to dilute a lot of the actual underscoring that you really need, when you need it. So if you’re playing all the time, or for every time it feels like a music cue, what you’re doing to the audience is basically gearing them to hear the, the violins, or the horns, or the whatever, every time there’s an obvious music cue. And you want to avoid doing that, and it’s a fight, it really is. It’s a battle that I haven’t won that often because I have yet to find Producers and front offices that agree with a minimalist approach. Just what you need, and no more. Again, its what--it’s the music you take away and its, it’s a tough concept because the temptation is… Well, the first place, what it says is they don’t trust the material itself to project the emotional values. You know, the thinking is that the music will ensure that the audience will stay involved. Well, that’s old fashioned, unfortunately. [INT: Yeah. Yeah, I agree. I agree.]

INT: Let’s talk about LESSON BEFORE DYING [A LESSON BEFORE DYING]. [JS: Yeah.] Anything come up for you in that, as you think about the shooting, either something that was extremely satisfying or a challenge that you remember, or a moment?

JS: No. I was just trying to think, all I think keep thinking about is Irma Hall and she was just sensational. [INT: And why?] Pardon? [INT: Why?] She was the character, she played the mother, the grandmother of, of Mekhi Phifer. [INT: And had you worked with her? Did you know anything about her at all?] No, no. In fact, you know, she kept thanking me for casting her in such a major roll. She says, “I’m, I’m a day player.” She fashions herself a day player, can you imagine? [INT: Yeah, but how do you man--Did you have to fight for her?] Not really, no. I think everybody agreed once they saw the tape on her. That’s another, a case of casting by tape. She came highly recommended, the casting agent, and then when we saw the tape, of course. The richness, and wonderful. Do ya know? [INT: Yeah, I know the piece.] Do you know who she is? [INT: Yeah, I know who she is, yeah. But, I mean…] But…And again, Don [Don Cheadle] and Mekhi and it just, we, it was a, almost a trouble-free production. [INT: Right.] Halfway enough. [INT: And the kids? Any issues with the, you know, the younger people in this piece?] No, no. I was a…I’m tryna think if there was any major problems anywhere--Not really. [INT: Where did you shoot it?] In, where was it, New Orleans. [INT: And how was that city to, as for production?] Delightful. Delightful. There’s, there’s only one New Orleans, you know, its rich. But we didn’t, we weren’t shooting in the Latin Quarter or anything like that. In fact, we weren’t even shooting in New Orleans at all. It was all outside. As you probably remember, it was all small town. [INT: Country, yeah. Small town, yeah.] Yeah.

INT: Dostoevsky [Fyodor Dostoyevsky]. There’s got to be some challenges in that one [CRIME AND PUNISHMENT].

JS: the challenge was in doing it in the first place. I mean, how do you take a novel as long as WAR AND [WAR AND PEACE]--CRIME AND PUNISHMENT and try to make a two-hour movie out of it? It was absurd, and the attempt was noble, on the part of the author and the part of CBS, for going for it. Those were the heady days when it looked like each of the networks had its little art corner that they were determined to raise their images with. And so this was one of those moments, and it lasted about one season, and then they quickly forgot about it. But while it was in the rage, I was off to Budapest with Bob Halmi [Robert Halmi Sr.] and we shot Dostoevsky. Which was just a shock for all of us. And even though I was aware that, you know, we were shooting it with, a less-than-full representation of this incredible, great novel, it was still rich enough to be a challenge and…I guess it…Working with, working with Hungarian Actors was a bit of challenge. [INT: Because?] Because of, not being comfortable with the language. That’s always the problem with working with European Actors, of course. Those Actors who were very comfortable with English, there’s no problem with. And of course, those Actors who are very talented, even if they weren’t so good in English, were enough--they were professional enough to master the, the uncomfortableness of working in English. But you have to do that when--But, you see, there’d be no savings if they go all the way to Budapest and have to import all of the English-speaking Actors, which they had to do in terms of the principles, but not…So working with, that didn’t make that too easy and too enjoyable.

INT: In your cast, I’m curious ‘cause Raskolnikov [Rodion Romanovich Raskolnikov] was played by—[JS: Sir Ben Kingsley] No, no, he played--[JS: Oh I’m not--] Ben was phenomenal as the…But the kid…[JS: Patrick Dempsey] Patrick Dempsey. Now what--Was Patrick part of, was this a CBS, were you okay with this, ''cause I thought--this is personal, I, you know, I--I’m curious where you were in terms of the casting of this, cause was this…?]

JS: I didn’t know Patrick’s work. I was introduced to him and he seemed very credible, very, you know. And certainly he looked good for he roll, and he’s a good Actor. [INT: So, yes.] Yeah. And Ben was Ben.

INT: MANDELA [MANDELA AND DE KLERK].

JS: There’s a very interesting project, you know, fraught with all kinds of problems. Not the least of which was dealing with some of the crew. Some of which were just not up to the standards that we’re used to. Most notably, the Production Designer. He just wasn’t on, shockingly, not on the level that we take for granted, you know. [INT: And what were the things that were missing?] The, selection process in terms of which buildings to use. Actual buildings. He knew enough about architecting to lay out blueprints for something that had to be built, although most of it was all actual locations, including Robin Island, by the way. So we shot in the actual cell that Mandela [Nelson Mandela] spent his 25 years in. And which now is a shrine, you know, it’s a big sort of thing. But it was…He couldn’t find, for instance, one very important place, which is the large home that de Klerk [F.W. de Klerk] was living in. In effect, the President’s palace. And day after day I would ask where, what’s the latest, and he says, “Well…”And he couldn’t do this, couldn’t do that. Finally I just found it on a weekend. I went out looking, and my wife and I decided to have lunch at this one place, and it was perfect, and it was within minutes of where the office was. And I asked him if it was, you know, available, and they said, “Yeah, sounds interesting.” And that’s how I was able to get, ‘cause this was 11th hour stuff, we were up in like a week before shooting. But other than that, there was a sort of a resistance on the part of, besides this Production Designer, on a part of some of the crew, because we were Americans who were coming in to make a film about their country. And these were all very sympathetic White folks, to the movement that, and the election that had just happened, or they were the Afrikaners who were adapting to a forced acceptance, whether they liked it or not. But, primarily that they were, they were all dedicated to eliminating apartheid. And the election was only two years before we, we were there. It was a brand new republic. And you were kind of like surrounded with all of the, the fervor and the hope that now things were gonna get better. Unfortunately, they didn’t get that much better because the poverty, the years of apartheid had their, had their price.