INT: Hi, my name is Herb Adleman, and today is Friday, November 10th, 2006, and I'm conducting an interview with Tom Joyner for the Directors Guild of America's Visual History Program. We are in the DGA building in Los Angeles, CA.

TJ: Hi, my name is Tom Joyner or Thomas Alan Joyner. I was born in Oak Park, Illinois on December 7th, 1943.

INT: Why don’t we start this with just general background, like, where you grew up, how you grew up, what kind of childhood you had, education. You wanna expound on that?

TJ: Okay, sure. It was a dark and stormy night. No. [Laughs] Let’s see: I was born in Oak Park, Illinois, December 7th, 1943. I have one older brother, John, and we lived there ‘til about 1947. Then we moved to Delaware. We were there for a year and then to Kansas for a year. I should probably back up and say my father was with Trans World Airlines [TWA]. And he had worked his way up from a mechanic’s apprentice into management. And we were from Denver transferred to the airport facility in Delaware and I was very young at that time and then on to Kansas. And then in 1950, we moved to Paris, France. And my father, at that time, was in charge of food services for overseas airlines, so it was a wonderful experience living in Paris from 1950 to ’54 [1954], attending the American community school [American School of Paris] and having the opportunity of traveling throughout Europe. Of course, working for the airline, we had free travel, so we took advantage of that wherever possible and traveled as far as Egypt, and Greece, and throughout Holland, and Belgium, and all throughout Europe. So it was wonderful in those formative years to be able to have the opportunity to have that European experience. And then I used to go and spend summers on the farm in Kingsburg, California, which I have a lot of relatives who are raisin farmers in the San Fernando Valley. So flying from Paris to spend the summers in California was kind of a special treat ‘cause, here I was the kid who was living in Paris coming to this small, rural California town to visit cousins and then, of course, in Paris, it was fun being an American growing up over there. So that was a really wonderful, wonderful opportunity. And then in 1954, my father was transferred to New York and I went there and I was there from, I guess, sixth grade through eight grade for three years in New York. And then an interesting thing happened. There was a new president--came into TWA and he was reviewing all the senior executives’ portfolios, and discovered that my father only had a sixth grade education--[INT: Wow.]--so he lost his, his high executive position and went to Denver to open up TWA operations in Denver, Colorado, as station manager, which was still a--actually, it was kind of a semi-retirement for him. But it--he had 17 airports under him when he was in New York, and he was always gone, so it was probably the best thing for him and it probably added years to his life. So we moved to Denver in 1957, and I finished high school there, and was not the best of students. I went into the Marine Corps upon graduation, and it was the best thing I could have done. Of course, that was pre-Vietnam. And it was just a wonderful place to grow up and get some maturity. And out of boot camp, I was in the top 10 percent, which put me in to C-school, which--[INT: What is C-school?] C-school is for service aboard ship. And then again, I was in the top 10 percent of that, which made me qualify for admiralty duties, where I was assigned an admiral, to an admiral for two years and it was just a piece of cake. We carried our liberty cards in our pocket, and we provided orderly services and driving services for him, wherever he went for two years. And we made a WestPac Cruise; went to Japan and Hong Kong and the Philippines and were gone for six months--[INT: My word!] And every time we went into port in a foreign country, of course, the navy supplied him with a driver under the local areas, so we didn’t have a lot to do. It was just time to go on Liberty and--[INT: How long were you in the Marine Corps?] I was a three-year enlistment and I was in for two years, nine months and two weeks. After the two-year enlistment, I was transferred down to Camp Pendleton to Head Quarters company as an orderly, as an Orders Clerk. And I started seeing college; early discharges for attending college come through, so I said, “Gee, why don’t I do that?” And I typed up my own discharge papers and the company commander didn’t wanna approve them, because I was supposed to be there for another six months, but I submitted them into the battalion commander, who did approve of them. And they came back and he was forced to signed them, so I got out about three months early, which was great. So it was a wonderful experience for me. And then I went to Adam State College [Adams State University] in Alamosa, Colorado, which was a small teacher’s college. I had kind of made a commitment to pay for it myself. And it was the cheapest in state school the farthest from home...

TJ: So anyway, back to Adams State College [Adams State University] where it was--I was able to put myself through school with the savings that I had and then the G.I. Bill kicked in. And having the maturity of being in the service for three years, I just sailed through college. I was on Dean’s List and just sailed through. And I became a dorm advisor, so my housing was paid for. And being on the Dean’s List made it tuition free, and the G.I. Bill covered all the other costs, so it was just a wonderful time. I was an English and Speech Theater major in college; active in a lot of the plays and in campus radio station. [INT: What did you wanna do?] I didn’t really know, wasn’t really focused on what I wanted to do. I enjoyed working in theater, and actually, it originated from when I was in the service in Long Beach. I was very active at the Armed Services YMCA and they had a little theater program there and I was doing some of the plays and melodramas there. [INT: Acting?] As an Actor, yeah. So I enjoyed that. And I had a good voice, so I used to do some narration for them there and it was kind of fun. So I was kind of interested in acting and when I graduated from college, I went down to Denver, and I was working at a radio station, doing, reading news, kind of rip ‘n’ read, pulling it off the wire service, making a couple of adjustments, and just reading newscasts. And I was bouncing from that to another radio station when I was selling advertising and just kind of staying in that mix. And Universal Studios came out was shooting a pilot; and the pilot was called THE PROTECTORS [COMPANY OF KILLERS], starring Van Johnson and John Saxon. And I got a hired as a local hire stand-in for Van Johnson, which was great fun for me. So I got to be--it was my first introduction into the film business. And I really enjoyed that. And there was a trainee on the show, Harvey Laidman, who went on to become a Director. And Ralph Sariego who’s gone to become a studio executive [Universal Pictures studio executive] and, I think, subsequently retired, and Jerry Thorpe was directing, and Paul Cameron was the First [First Assistant Director], so these are all quite notable names in the film industry. They were all in that project. So I wrote and applied to the training program. And I flew out for--took the test, and came back, and just had--totally forgot about it because I had realized the odds were so difficult. And I was called out for an interview. So I borrowed money and flew out for an interview, slept on a friend’s floor and went down to Beverly and La Cienega, 8480 Beverly Blvd., to the, to the dark building. And was called in front of a big conference room with all these formidable looking executives sitting around a table and interview lasted about 10 minutes and I was just totally dejected. And I felt, boy I blew that, so I went back to Denver and continued working on--in radio. And I got a call on Friday the 13th, June 13th, from the training program, saying, “Can you be at work Monday morning and then the training program?” And I said, “No. I’m in Denver with a wife and a child, you know?” And they said, “Well, we have an assignment for you Monday morning.” I said, “I can’t be there, but if you want me in the program, I’ll come out and be out at the first of the month.” And they said, “Well, we can’t guarantee that there’d be an assignment at that time, but you would be in the program and you’d get an assignment on the next opportunity that came up.” So we cashed in the insurance policies, I gave notice at work, and got a U-Haul truck, and threw everything in the U-Haul truck and out to California we came. And found an apartment and was startled at the difference in rents between Denver and Los Angeles, but found a little one bedroom apartment that we could afford. The people were just moving out when we found it and I was able to convince the guy, since he hadn’t had a chance to clean it, we wouldn’t have to put a cleaning deposit down, and they were kind enough to leave the utilities on ‘til the end of the week, so we were able to get 'em turned on. So it just worked out beautifully. And the first project was a project for Warner Bros. on distant location in, I was told, Kansas City, Kansas. But when I got there, I found out it was actually Canyon City, Colorado, which was 60 miles from my home. So I could have left my wife at home and then just commuted to that. But, but as it was, I left. She had my two-year-old daughter in an apartment and flew back and did the Western BARQUERO. And while I was gone, of course, that was when Charles Manson started killing people and our apartment was in Los Feliz, so my wife was totally freaked out. She was explaining her concerns to me and I said, “It’s okay. I’ll be home in about six weeks, it will be just fine.” [Laughs] So she was really left in the lurch, but--

INT: How did you, how did you manage, you know, how did you manage--I can understand having a wife, ‘cause I had a wife, also, when I was a trainee, but how did you manage a family while you were a trainee?

TJ: Lots of spaghetti. [INT: Well, not just--not just financially.] We had one car, my wife would--my wife didn’t work, so she would take me to work in the morning, drop me off at work in the morning; would pack up the little one, put her in the car seat and she’d drive me to work. [INT: At four in the morning, three in the morning?] Four in the morning, five in the morning, six--whatever the time was. It was kind of fun, it was kind of an adventure in the morning, getting up, going to work and then, and then she’d drop me off and we’d--well, obviously at those days, we were before the traffic going to work, so she was able to get in and get out beforehand. And she’d go home and get my daughter to day school or home or wherever she went, whatever her activities were for the day. And then she would pick me up at the end of the day.

INT: Early in your life, did the movie industry or television offer any fascination for you, or was there any film or television program that caught your interest or…

TJ: Prior to getting into the business? I’ve always enjoyed film. I’ve always--we were rather late in getting, getting a television, living overseas, living in France, we didn’t get our first TV set wasn’t until 1954, so we were a lot later than a lot of people. But I don’t recall anything that really, really called me towards, towards the film industry. It was really, I don’t think I really got into it. I’ve always been a people person; I’ve always liked working with people. And I think it was the experiences at the Armed Services YMCA when I was in the Marine Corps that really kind of got me pushed toward in that direction and then again in college, I was a theater major, kind of got me into it and so I kind of came into it that way.

INT: Did--I understand that you wanted to be an Actor--

TJ: Well, I sort of did, yes. If it called--[INT: Did you pursue that at all?] No. Not--well, let’s see. When I was in radio I was--I tried out for a few plays and I would--I don’t think I ever had an agent. Well, I sort of listed myself with a few casting agencies, but nothing really came of it other than some community theatre and things of that nature. [INT: But you still enjoy acting?] Still--I really haven’t done much of it since then, but I’ve done a little--let’s see, what have I done? I’ve been in a few community projects here and there that I enjoy, but nothing, nothing of note; still waiting to be discovered. [INT: Did you wanna direct?] You know, that’s interesting. I have really never had a passion for directing. And it’s interesting, ‘cause I know a lot of people come in really, like, I’ve just always loved the production management side, the organizational experience of it. And of course, coming up over the years, just seeing how the pressure and the, some of the circumstances and sacrifices and compromises that a lot of Directors have to make, I’m grateful for the choices I’ve made, I think.

INT: How long did it take you to get through the training program and what was your impression of the training program in terms of what you learned, who did you work with in terms of Directors, Assistant Directors, Production Managers [Unit Production Managers], what kind of projects did you work on as a trainee? And--other than teaching you process , did you gain other things from the prog--the training program?

TJ: Well, I think the first show I did was a wonderful picture to start on--the BARQUERO. It was an old Western and we shot in Colo--in Canyon City, Colorado--[INT: That was a feature?] It was a feature film. Gordon Douglas was directing, and Rusty Meek was the First AD [Assistant Director], and Nat Holt, Jr. was the, was the Second AD [Assistant Director]. And Nat [Nat Holt, Jr.] was rather senior in years and wasn’t really that anxious to get out and be that active, so it allowed me, as a trainee, to really run. Bennie Dobbins was a stunt coordinator [Stunt Supervisor] and worked very closely with the Director. And it really, it was Bennie and I who ran the set and just kind of got everything together. And it was a wonderful indoctrination of whatever needs to be done you do; just get it done, go out and do it. And then Nat [Nat Holt, Jr.] was content to do the time cards and the production report and sit around the apple box and hold traffic, so it allowed me to do a lot of that. And what was interesting--this is, we had a very small unit and the call sheets, I’d come back at end of day and Rusty Meek would be in with the Director and he'd open up the door and hand out a piece of paper with scene numbers written on it. So I’d go back and create the call sheet from these scene numbers in the order that they were done. And we had to do it on a typewriter with an original and four carbons, so it was back in the day of carbon paper, banging out a call sheet with, looking up the scene number, “Okay, that’s exterior saloon, scene number such and such, whoever the--whoever"--[INT: The old mimeograph machine.] Not even that. We only made five copies--five call sheets. [INT: Really?] And the call sheet, the prime call sheet was taken down to the production office and taped inside the window, so the crew could all come by and see the call sheet for the next day. One went to the studio--[INT: Now what year was that?] Pardon me? [INT: What year was it?] This was 1969. [INT: Wow.] One call sheet went to the studio, one went to the Director, one went to the First AD, and I think one went to the production office; and those were the five call sheets. So then I, once I got the call sheet created and taped up and distributed, I had to notify all the cast and then the crew would find out what the group call was--and it was one of those simple calls, where the crew call’s eight o’clock, everybody’s there at eight o’clock and off they go--[INT: Get one the buses.] And on the bus and would go out there. So it wasn’t a lot of staggered calls ‘cause we were just, you know, all in the 29 passenger Flex and zip, that and a maxivan. [INT: What an extraordinary contrast it is today with all the volume of paper you have today.] Lots of--total, total. I mean we had, we had Actors time cards, a production report, and a call sheet. And that was really the extent of the paper work that we did. [INT: I mean now you run a 100 call sheets, a 150 call sheets, I mean, it’s…] Sure, sure. And oftentimes two and three call sheets a day and revisions and revisions and revisions on the call sheet.

INT: What were some of the other projects you worked on and what were some of the other people you worked with during the training program?

TJ: Oh gosh, as a trainee, training program? Well, I kind of fell into features and did a lot of features. One, one that was a great opportunity was SOMETIMES A GREAT NOTION that started out Dick Colla [Richard A. Colla] was gonna direct and he was the Director of it, but he was replaced on it. It was back in the days when, when Directors could be replaced and Paul Newman, the star of the picture, took over directing the picture, which no longer happens. But it was an interesting experience to watch because this was a time when everybody was in love with the zoom lens and the 10-inch lens and a lot of camera movements on a crane in different positions. And I remember a confrontation that the Director had with Henry Fonda. Henry Fonda said, “I’m an Actor and you’re the Director. You give me a mark and by god I’ll hit it, but don’t just tell me to shoulder it around and see how it feels and go wherever you feel like,” said, “No. Give me direction.” And it was that type of confrontation between two schools of filmmaking, between a Director who was wanting to be very creative and give the Actors the flexibility to go and move and do whatever they wanted and an old school Actor who wanted that firm direction and he would work within those confines and it was interesting to see that clash of personality. [INT: Yeah, there was, there was in the late ‘60s [1960s], early ‘70s [1970s] there was really a transition in terms of directing style.] Yes, yeah.

INT: Let’s see. What are--and some of the other projects worked on or some of the other people--who were some of the people that most, most impressed you as a trainee?

TJ: I had a wonderful experience with--well, actually Jim Fargo [James Fargo] was a First AD [Assistant Director] that I was kind of attached to and did a lot of projects with. I was his trainee and then I was Second [Second Assistant Director] and we sort of--he was kind of the fair-haired boy at Universal [Universal Pictures] as First AD going from feature to feature and I went with him as his Second. But we did a picture, a movie of the week, called DUEL that was one of the first projects that Steven Spielberg did. Jack Marta was an old time cameraman who was remarkably creative and flexible with young Steven [Steven Spielberg] at this--[INT: I was gonna ask you that a little bit later because--but might as well answer it now.] Sure. [INT: Tell us, tell me about all your impressions of Steven Spielberg, ‘cause you’ve done three projects with him.] Yes. [INT: Why don’t we explore that a little bit.] Well, it was interesting. The thing about Steven, he always had, he definitely knew what he wanted to do, and he was always creative, and he was excellent at working with Actors and, and--[INT: Now how old, how old was he when he did DUEL?] You know, I’m not sure. I think he was 26 when he did JAWS and this was, like, a couple years before, so he must have been somewhere between 23 and 24--[INT: Oh my word.]--somewhere around there I would think. [INT: So that, so what was your impression of a 24--now, you were trainee at the time?] I was a trainee at the time, so I wasn’t, I was just two years older than he was, so I think I felt like a contemporary. [Laughs] We were all young. [INT: So what are your memories and what are your impressions of]--Of Steven?--[INT: Of Steven Spielberg as a 24-year-old Director?] Just as a--well, recognizing that I was not much older myself, I was seeing him really as a contemporary and it was a guy who knew what he wanted, and was very creative. [INT: He didn’t write that?] No, no. He didn’t write it. No, no. He directed it and it went out to be an excellent, fabulous--it was a wonderful, very simple story and it was a very powerful, very powerful movie. [INT: It wasn’t about a truck and--] A truck and Dennis Weaver was a salesman on his way on the road, and they had this truck kept harassing him and it was trying to escape and, and the battle that went on between he and the truck driver and--

INT: Now when you say that Spielberg [Steven Spielberg] was prepared or--did he come with a shot list or?

TJ: As a trainee, I never was close enough to know if he had a shot list or not. I think he always was well prepared and knew what he wanted. But what was interesting to me was his creative use of camera angles. He was always interested in setting the camera low to the ground or different, unusual, unusual angles. And we had a camera car, which was kind of new at the time. It was a Corvette with a low mounted camera platform on the front that we could get some pretty fast angles and low moving angles on there. I remember the operator one day was strapped on the front of it going, you know, over some dirt road and came back in absolute agony ‘cause a piece of pebbles had popped up in the air and just hit him right in the groin and he was doubled over holding the camera. [Laughs] But it was, it was--after that there was a lot more padding worn. [INT: And again, who was the first on that?] Jim Fargo was First AD [Assistant Director] on that. [INT: Jim Fargo. And the UPM [Unit Production Manager]?] The UPM was Wally Worsley [Wallace Worsley, Jr.]. Wally, Wally was a UPM [Unit Production Manager] on that. [INT: Yeah. We’ll explore that in a few minutes also.] Wally was truly a mentor of mine in the industry. He, he was responsible for teaching me a great deal; he's a marvelous, wonderful gentlemen and he was responsible for getting me active in the Directors Guild, which we’ll probably touch on later, but--[INT: Where was, where was DUEL shot?] DUEL was shot in Acton, in Canyon Country, and Saugus, and Newhall and that area--[INT: So it was right here in Los Angeles?] Here, locally, yeah, yeah. And then I also had an opportunity at Screen Gems to do one of the last of the last season, a couple episodes of BEWITCHED, and THE PARTRIDGE FAMILY pilot, and some of those early things. And then I did a season of HERE COME THE BRIDES with Bobby Sherman, and David Soul, and Robert Brown at Screen Gems.

INT: How long did it take you to get, to get through the training program?

TJ: It was, well, it’s 400 days as it was, but I got through in just a little under two years. Worked fairly steady. I think I had a two, kind of a two one-month lay offs, I think. I know one time I was painting houses between, between lay offs. And the other time, I got a job at Sambo’s, fry cooking, breakfast cooks. And it was interesting; all the stand-ins and all the extras used to come in in the morning and go--[Laughs]--I was back there fixing breakfast for them. [INT: Really?] Yeah. [Laughs]

INT: What are--are there anything, is there anything that stands out in terms of what you learned? Is it about dealing with people, dealing with Actors, dealing with Directors, aside from the mechanics of the paper work and making phone calls and making sure that people are supposed to be where there supposed to be at a given time during the course of the production day? But was there any other--more subtle things that you learned in terms of being an Assistant Director during the training program?

TJ: During the training program, I think it was important to learn to listen and instead of just--I mean, I remember when I first started out as a trainee, people would say, “Would you run down to the Honey Wagon,” and boom, I’d be gone. I’d just take off, so eager, but learning to make sure you really fully understood what was going on and just hearing and being aware that often times there was another agenda out there going on. You might be told to do something, but there’s another reason to be done. I know there’s sometimes there’s other issues that are in place and what--you may be told to do something doesn’t seem to make sense, but there’s, there’s another reason behind it. [INT: Were there any other projects or Assistant Directors or Directors that standout during your training program?] Oh gosh, I think--I’m not sure if I was a trainee at the time or not; I did five pictures with Clint Eastwood and I think one of them, I may have been a trainee on one of them. It might have been, I think-- [INT: Oh, what an experience that must’ve been. Now, he was acting at the time?] Yes, he was acting and directing--[INT: Oh, and directing?] Well, no. Let’s see, the first one, I guess, JOE KIDD. JOE KIDD was shot in Tucson, and he was, he was just an Actor on that. I think John Sturges directed that one. [INT: Oh wow. So you’ve really]--I’ve worked with some remarkable people. [INT: Yeah, you had the opportunity, I mean, Sturges…] Sure, right. It was interesting; there were three features shot in Tucson at the same time. Paul Newman was there on JUDGE ROY BEAN [THE LIFE AND TIMES OF JUDGE ROY BEAN] and George C. Scott was filming THE HOSPITAL. So, of course, it had to snow and shut down three movie companies [Laughs]--a rarity for Tucson.

INT: Then when, when you got out of the training program, what was your first job as a Second [Second Assistant Director]?

TJ: Well, I finished the training program at Universal Studios [Universal Pictures], and I just continued right on. In fact, I finished--I stayed employed basically full time at Universal from--this is something that just doesn’t happen anymore--[INT: Yeah, I know.]--from 1970 to 1978. [INT: Now, did they keep you on payroll, because I remember I was also at Universal--that was my last assignment as a trainee--and up until ’78 [1978], ’79 [1979], they used to have--this was in television, I don’t know about features--but they used to keep almost like a stable, a stable of Assistant Directors and Production Managers [UPM].] If they couldn’t--usually going from feature to feature and then I’d go to a television series or help out on a movie of the week, I’d go do a pilot and then--Bud Brill used to sit in, back in the production office in the--when it was the American, Bank of America building. He had an office there where he--they basically carried him and his job basically was to do boards, do boards and budgets and he would sit and do breakdown boards. And from time to time, we would go and assist him and help him make strips and one thing or other. But they pretty much kept us on salary for a time, from project to project. [INT: Yeah, I remember, yeah. I remember that and that was the last studio to do that.] Sure, yeah, yeah. [INT: So you went from feature to television and back and forth for those seven or eight years or six or seven years?] Yes, right. [INT: What was your first job as a Second straight out of the training program?] I’m not sure I remember. I’m not sure I recall what that first show was. It was one of the Universal… Gosh, I think PETE ‘N’ TILLIE might have been one of the earlier ones. That was a feature that was shot in San Francisco. Again, Wally Worsley [Wallace Worsley, Jr.] was the Production Manager on it. It was Walter Matthau, Carol Burnett, Geraldine Page--she shot in San Francisco.

INT: How did the system work in those days in terms of how did you get--I mean, now, a Second [Second Assistant Director] usually gets hired by the First [First Assistant Director] and the First gets hired by the Director. But in those days, how did you go about--how did--

TJ: That was before the Director had the right to pick his First. And by then, there was, I think the production people at Universal [Universal Pictures] had a list of Unit Managers they certainly liked and Assistant Directors they liked and Second Assistants that they liked and they just tried to keep them, keep the teams working as much as possible. [INT: So they maintained teams?] Well, I worked, I worked with Jim Fargo [James Fargo] on several features going through that period, but then I also worked with other First ADs [Assistant Directors] along, between projects, so it was, it was, I can’t say it was necessarily maintained as a team, because I know I worked with a lot of different Unit Managers up and down that back hall of Universal that, through the-gosh, Joe Cavalier [Joseph C. Cavalier], Robin Clark [Robin S. Clark], Frank Losee [Frank Losee II], I mean they were all up and down, up and down the hall. Jimmy Hogan [Jim Hogan].

INT: Now at some point, as a Second [Second Assistant Director], I think it was, if I remember correctly, you said that you went on to another Steven Spielberg movie--[TJ: SUGARLAND EXPRESS.] SUGARLAND EXPRESS. Who was the First [First Assistant Director] on that and the Production--

TJ: Jim Fargo [James Fargo], again, was the First [First Assistant Director] on that. Bill Gilmore [William S. Gilmore] was the, who, again, was a mentor of mine for many years, Bill Gilmore was the Unit Production Manager and I was the Second, and we shot that in several, several places. Basically in San Antonio, Texas, but we were down in El Paso and some areas around. That was all shot on distant location. [INT: Now were, were you Jim Fargo's [James Fargo] choice?] Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. I was kind of Jim’s key Second that went with--actually, the only Second in those days that went with him. [INT: That’s true. How did, you know--] And we hired, we found Ron Smith as a Production Assistant in Sugarland, Texas who was working with his father’s clothing store. And he subsequently came to Hollywood and became an Assistant Director and production executive and line producer--[INT: What an amazing story.] Yeah. [INT: Excuse me.] Richard Wells [Richard A. Wells] was our trainee on the show. [INT: Oh wow.] It was quite an experience taking him through Texas and Sugarland. We had a wonderful time; it’s great. [INT: Can you, can you reflect on how these location shows, or even, you know, Los Angeles based shows, were done with, you know, just a First and a Second, and if you were lucky, you got a trainee, but basically it was the Assistant Directing team--what was it--what was it without walkie-talkies, without cell phones, how did we all get the job done and the shows were not that less complicated?] Well, it’s interesting. I think the department heads had a different relationship, because they would come to us for information. They knew that we had the information, we had to get the information to them, and they knew that there was just the two or three of us there, so he would have to come to us to get the information. Now, I think, we find ourselves having to go and find them to give them the information. But I always felt that the transportation coordinator was another AD [Assistant Director]. He was there to dispatch the transportation; he would load them and get ‘em in, get ‘em out. Was--I always almost treated the transportation coordinator or the captain, the driver captain as my AD who ran base camp.

INT: Do you think that the--my memory is that the movies were not less complicated or not dramatically less complicated than, than they are today. I mean, you know, you had--you were on location, you got your insert cards, you had your cranes, you had your one cam--well, we had one camera instead--now, they usually carry two cameras, and two camera crews. But basically, you know, you’re still shooting, you know, a 100 pages, a150 page--you know a 110 pages. But yet, the crews were smaller. You know, not only the DGA crew--

TJ: And it was four odd cable and the lamps, and the equipment was heavier. [INT: That’s right, exactly. What caused that change where the crew has expanded? And the DGA crew?] Well, I think you’re working with smaller lights now. I think your electrical packages are bigger than they used to be. You’re grip packages are bigger than they used to be. Instead of working with, with a couple of shiny boards and arc, you’re working with a lot smaller lights placed around other subtler lights and I think that takes a little more labor, a little more labor intensive. It’s a different style of lighting. And I also think the style of photography has changed. It’s not the proscenium style master and basic coverage anymore. I think your find yourself a lot more complicated dolly shots and, or Steadicam shots, what have you. And I just think it’s just more innovative and more inventive that may cause the additional crew. I used to always wonder why, why is the equipment’s lighter, the film is faster, why shouldn't the crews be getting smaller? I think if you wanted to go back and shoot in the old style of filmmaking with today’s lights, you probably could work very small crews. And I think there’s a lot of very successful little, small independent films that are going out with little banded crews almost making wonderful films on shoestring. But the, I think the major studio style of filmmaking is just much more demanding. There’s, which causes larger crews. I think it’s smaller equipment, different style of lighting; a subtler lighting that…But I think you’re still shooting the same pace. I mean your feature, to my recollection, has always been two and a half to four pages, three pages a day, unless there’s extenuating circumstance. Movie of the weeks have always been four to six pages; and episodic television is eight to 10 pages, and sometimes more. I mean--[INT: Episodic television also has come down. I mean, we used to be seven days an episode and now it’s 8 days.] Used to do it in six and it’s seven, eight and sometimes nine on some episodes. [INT: Right, right. You know, and now we’re down to probably, you know, six pages a day. You know, also, you know, the length of the show is now 44 minutes or 42 minutes of program as opposed to 48 minutes of program. But let’s get, let’s go back to how the role of the AD [Assistant Director] has changed, so that at one point, you know, you had a First [First Assistant Director] and a Second [Second Unit Director] and maybe a trainee and now you have a First, a Second, a Second Second, and usually a trainee and umpteen PAs [Production Assistants]] Well, a lot of it changed with the advent of the computer. The call sheet used to be roughed out and sent to the production office and you hoped to get it back after lunch. The production secretary would type the--the production office would prepare the call sheet, it would be reviewed and approved by the production manager, and it would come back to the set. Now, they rely on the Second AD [Second Assistant Director] to create and not only create, but print the call sheet. And, of course, with the computer, they don’t only want one call sheet, they want the second version and the third version, and let’s see the first draft; get a temp call sheet and that has to be distributed and then they get feedback on it. So what happens, the key Second really gets nailed to the, to a production trailer and he’s off the set and if you need help on the set, then it’s a Second Second that has to do that. And if there’s a lot of activity on the set where you’re staging background and have a lot of Actors, you’re gonna need someone on the set with the First [First Assistant Director] and someone in basecamp with the first team and prepping. And then again, there’s a lot more paperwork than we used to have to deal with. [INT: In what way?] Well, there’s I-9s [Form I-9, Employment Eligibility Verification] on every new, daily employee that we didn’t used to have; before it was just a time card and a start slip and then there’s the Actor’s sign out sheet. But that--we didn’t--that used to be, used to be time cards--[INT: There’s also the safety, the safety thing and the sexual harassment thing--] There’s safety issues, sure. There’s all those other different things to have to be happen. Plus, there seem to be a lot, a lot more distribution that goes on that--and coordinating with locations that goes on that didn’t have to happen before. Best thing about working on a Western was getting out in the countryside where you were free of all that. You were on a, on a, you know, a large parcel of land that belonged to either the Bureau of Land Management [BLM] or was--and you didn’t have to worry about holding traffic; you didn’t have to worry about noisy neighbors. You just had total control. You just went to work everyday and there was it was, or you were on somebody’s ranch and you had that total control.

INT: You wanna talk anything about the uniqueness of shooting Westerns, since it sounds like you’ve done several?

TJ: Westerns are great fun, ‘cause the big tool, to me, in a Western has always been the Titan Crane, ‘cause you just throw the camera gear on the crane in the morning at base camp and take off, and you can just set, you can just move so quickly with a, with a, with a Titan Crane; avoiding laying dolly tracks. Sometimes you have a long, where you’re tracking with a--with a Titan you have to lay a track, but it’s just a very efficient way to move that you can get a lot, a lot done like that. [INT: It’s also, it’s also quite amazing how everything has expanded. I mean, you know, years ago you’d have, you know, you grouped electric equipment in one vehicle, in one truck, you’d have your camera equipment and sound equipment in one truck; you’d have a prop truck that was also your craft service. Now, it’s an entire long caravan. I mean…] Sure, sure. Well, when you consider if you have three or four actors of star quality and they’re all in a thirty foot motor home, you’ve got 160 feet of motor homes, plus the Honey Wagon. But it was interesting starting on the Westerns, I remember the very first Western I used, it was, we had the old shoe box two watt walkie-talkies, which barely worked. The antennas were always snapping and they, the batteries would die and they really didn’t work very well. [INT: And you only got before them four of five of them.] Four of them on the set and the range was not that good. And we were still using--and it was interesting to be able to see how that worked, using one by threes and different colored flags on one by threes to cue Actors coming from a distance. And if you had a long ways away, you would have somebody as a relay to relay the signal to the, you know, when the Indians [Native Americans] charge over the hill, so you had the, you’d be giving the cue for the--was waving a flag and a flag to a flag to a flag. And it all worked very well. It just, it was a different way to work.