INT: In THE MAN AND U.N.C.L.E. [THE MAN FROM U.N.C.L.E], when you were in your experimental days of lets use the camera in every way, you were gonna tell-- [JS: Yeah.]--Tell what ya did, so, go for it.

JS: Well, in order to recreate a smaller scale version of what went on in that great Russian film, I used up the entire morning of a six-day day schedule, not seven, not eight. A six-day schedule is all we had in MAN FROM U.N.C.L.E. at the time. But by 11:30, I was making a lot of people nervous because it required an enormous amount of rehearsal and setup, and what have you. And we had a good, a good hand-held man at the time, and so he loved the challenge, you know. So we started in a bus. Now the bus was, you know, it was like a school bus in size. The scope was all cut down. And, we’re on the principle lady, and she gets up and goes down the stairs, we do the whole number, and except that, you know, its only one block. And then when he steps on the crane, and we lift him up, instead of the entire Red Army [national army of the Soviet Union], its, it’s like a car full of enemy agents or something. Some crazy, dumb thing. And then she runs, and we have little bit of a thing, and that’s it. And they wanted to know why the hell it took me an entire morning to set up this stupid shot, and what for. And, its nice to get those kinds of things out of your way, its nice to use all the toys you can. But I would caution young directors to use them a little bit less enthusiastically than they would like to, only because you could get into trouble. And for the rest of that six days, I had to really hustle. [INT: I bet.] And to make up for that little experience and that little, that little joy ride I took, but--[INT: Did the sh--Did the shot stay in the show?] Oh, yeah. Oh, sure. Everything stays in the show [interviewer laughs loudly] when your doing MAN FROM U.N.C.L.E. [THE MAN FROM U.N.C.L.E].

INT: Lets talk about--a little bit about production design. When do you prefer to build, or do you like to build at all?

JS: When it’s necessary, you have to. [INT: But what will--what will determine that for you? When will you say, “I have to build something.”] As opposed to going on location? [INT: Yeah.] When it’s more practical, obviously, to stay inside. Now, if there’s an even choice, usually the DP [Director of Photography, Cinematographer] would rather shoot in a controlled atmosphere like a sound stage, for which I have no argument, other than the fact we might be losing a little bit of the ambiance of the location. But, basically we’re in a controlled environment with better lighting, better working conditions, etcetera. Climate has something to do with this. If we’re in a rainy season, it’s not so practical to shoot outdoors. If we’re in extremely hot season, we may wanna make it easier for everybody and move inside. Or if we cannot find an interior that would save us time, money, and energy, we build a set. And usually those are the conditions under which you would prefer one or the other.

INT: Do you have any style that you feel--I mean I know that your collaborative nature, but in terms of working with a Production Designer, is there anything that you ask for, look for, or require of them? [JS: Yeah.] What, what--

JS: Yeah, I would say, he would have to, or she, would have to choose and select and design the sets that will further the needs of the script, of the production, of the style of, you know, what we have both agreed on. Which is basically what you do with each department, with the Production Designer, with the Costume Designer, with the Cameramen, with the Set Decorator…You basic--What your doing is coordinating color, style, and usability all to service the needs of the production. Basically that’s what a Director’s main job is, and again, you know, it’s not generally understood by people and also by young aspiring Directors, how extensive the job is and how exhausting it can be because you’re dealing with all the departments and your coordinating all the departments into a hole. And that hole is the end result that goes on the screen.

INT: It’s an interesting issue that you mention about the coordination of that because of the relationship between, that often times isn’t there. I’m curious how you handle it, ‘cause you’ve also done period pieces where it has to be handled. The relationship between wardrobe and production design, because, as you just said, color becomes an issue that you as a Director are concerned with, and sometimes those departments work separate from each other and all of a sudden you’ve got, you know, a fabulous-looking outfit that’s gonna be going against weird colored walls. How--Are you aware of this? Do you get these--[JS: Absolutely.] And do you put these people together?

JS: I have to. Oh, yeah, and before the production meeting. Now, at the production meeting, the essence of the production meeting, the genesis of why we even have production meetings is precisely to have one department talking to another and to know what’s going on in left field as opposed to right field. But I do that ahead of time so that we are coordinated before we get to the production meeting, and the production meeting is primarily utilized for re-confirmation of what has already been set into motion. [INT: Got it.] Otherwise, you know, you gotta, a costume designer whose working heavily in red material that may clash like hell against what the production designer is designing for the walls or for the set, or the cameramen, if he’s left out of that dialogue, doesn’t know that he’s gonna be faced with a clash or a color that will get, will become a problem. [INT: Yeah.] So, that’s your job. You’ve gotta make sure that camera, costume, sets are talking to each other.

INT: Lets talk--In talking about, sort of, the coordination of it. What’s your relationship with your Assistant Director? And are there other Assistant Directors that have stayed with you for a while? I mean, how do you, I mean are--What’s your relationship?

JS: Yeah, well the irony is because I haven’t shot a film in Hollywood, in the state of California really, for about 17 or 18 years, most of my AD’s [Assistant Directors] are, you know, out of the country. And, you know, the people I’ve been working with, are either in Europe or in Canada. And of course we don’t have a reciprocity exactly with the Canadian DG…[INT: C.] C [The Directors Guild of Canada]. [INT: Yep.] As regards to AD’s. So I kind of lost track of who’s available and whose still working; etcetera, etcetera. And its nice to know, now that I’m doing one at least in the country, I’m being introduced to a new crop of very, very efficient, very well-backgrounded AD’s. [INT: Now, they’re two--] And the fact that they’re, a lot of them are women now. [INT: Yeah, absolutely.]

INT: They’re two, sort of, responsibilities AD’s [Assistant Directors] have; one is, sort of, coordinating all of the departments so that everything is smooth and being responsible on the set, and the other one is background. And I’m curious how you deal with those two aspects in terms of an AD’s responsibility?

JS: Well one of the things I look for with an AD is he or she’s sense of staging, because that’s important. The idea that an AD’s job ends with doing all that paperwork, which is passed on to his second [Second Assistant Director] anyway, or being able to lay out a good board, which he--is the bulk of his or her job, but that it should end there, and with a sort of a generalized, get people moving on a walla [sound effect imitating the murmur of a crowd in the background] basis, you know. If you go to a mix and have a loop group [advanced dialogue replacement] do walla walla walla, those days are gone because we’re much more demanding and much more specific now. Same thing with the staging of extras. [INT: Yeah.] So, I’ve learned to kind of conference with my AD and get him or her to think of what the activities could possibly be, think of all the possible activities that are interesting that the background can be engaged in, the kinds of moves that are interesting, and that will, of course, lend themselves to what I’m doing. So I’ve got ‘em thinking ahead of time rather than on their feet, when it’s too late. Because, if you wait for, if the AD waits to see what I’m going to be doing with the Actors, you’re not giving him or her enough time to put together something interesting as far as the background is concerned. So it’ll be a standard cross, cross, back here, this--And not a thought, really, not a chance to give a thought to breaking out of that pattern, that typical background, that BG [background] pattern that--[INT: So you’ll have a conversation before the day of, lets say you’ve got one or five days, whatever it is, where there’re lots of extras, you’ll have this conversation with your assistant about what should be staged?] Well first I have a general conversation that that--I will expect that from them, on every scene, so they’re prepared to start thinking now. Before I left Atlanta, for instance, the day before yesterday, that was my, that was my last command. I told her, “Get your thoughts and focus on what kinds of activities go on in a rehab center called Warm Springs,” which is what we’re doing [WARM SPRINGS], and these are for paralyzed and polio victims. And there’s a lot of good research on it, in addition to what can the people in the Atlanta streets that we’ll be shooting on; What are they doing that’s more than just walking up and down the street? Same thing with costumes by the way. There’s a tendency of Costume Designers, when they’re using stuff off the pipe to put on extras, the men all wear their hats. They all have hats, as you know, and the women are all dressed to the nines and everybody looks like their going to an upper-middle-class tea party in the middle of the afternoon, instead of what actually happens in life. Which is a mixture of different kinds of styles and, and the men wear colors that are odd sometimes. They wear sweaters, they wear open shirts, they wear suspenders, whatever, so that there’s a sense of believability of what goes on in life as opposed to the perfect fitting of every extra so that it looks like what they are, which is oft they came out of the costume department with everything. And I would say in defense of this, I understand that the costume designer puts everything on so that I can see what to take off, and again it then becomes my job, although we should share that more often. But it becomes, essentially a job of taking it away, as we discussed before.

INT: Do you find your eye, when you’re watching, let’s say, a scene where there are a lotta background and you still have foreground action with your, you know, your main Actors. Do you find that you are seeing it all so that, you know, there maybe something that will distract you, or do you ask the AD [Assistant Director], “Look, I’m paying attention to these five people here, you watch these other 50.” I’m curious how you work that.

JS: It’s tough to split your focus. Of course, the main focus, the main attention is being paid on the, on the Actors because there’s so much involved in the content of what they’re doing and the moves of the camera, that you can’t always jump from that to the background. Although, I’ve been able to pretty much keep an eye on both, on both values. I have the added advantage of going for an instant playback on the video assist, and be able to check that A, the stuff in the background isn’t too distracting, cause that is the, that is the balancing act you have to come through. [INT: Right.] It should be interesting, but not, not so interesting that people are gonna be looking at…Cause the danger is very easy there. [INT: Yeah.] An AD can be carried away with something very dynamic and interesting, which could wind up being a hell of a lot more interesting than what’s going on in the foreground. [INT: That’s true, that’s true.]

INT: In, your…This is interesting because you brought it up…I wanna go to where you put yourself next to the camera, but what’s your homework when you’ve gotten prepared, you’ve dealt with all the departments, you know, you’re ready to shoot? There are two things: What’s your mood the day--the night before your first day of shooting? What’s that about for you?

JS: Well first of all, I’ve compared notes with a lot of our colleagues and everybody goes through the same thing, doesn’t matter how long you’ve been directing. Doesn’t matter how long you’ve gone through, through the agonies of preparation or the--That night before, there’s always a little bit of tension, a little bit of butterflies, and a, and it’s incredible. And DP’s [Director of Photography, Cinematographer] have the same thing. I don’t know about the other departments exactly because they’re, they have an enormous amount of other work to do, but it is, it’s funny that--And of course, it doesn’t matter how prepared I may be, there is that little bit of the flutter in the wings as we called it in theatre, but preparation-wise, I work out as specifically, all of the activities, the moves, the camera angles, etcetera, and I do it all with the idea that I could throw it all out if I get better input once I put the Actors on their feet. Again, not to exploit the last-minute impulses and instincts and brilliant stuff that could happen when Actors respond, give input themselves, or if the Cameramen suddenly gets a better angle, better—It’s to deprive yourself really, of the richness that can come from that kind of collaboration. So, by being well prepared and going in with the assurance that this is the way I’m gonna get through the day if I can’t get something better, I’m leaving it wide open to get something better. I know that…I guess the, the model for me, of this, are European Directors, especially Fellini [Federico Fellini], who stays open. Now, how much preparation he does at night, I’ve never found out, but I’m sure he does too. You have to be prepared to go in to change everything. Once you can establish enough confidence in your own craft to do that…And I must say, I didn’t start that way. I started like every other young Director, where you choreograph every eyebrow move, and you make a shot list and all of that. I hate shot lists. [INT: So when--] Simply because what it does is it assumes, arrogantly, that the Actors are all gonna agree to every shot that you had in mind, that the Cameraman is going to agree to it, that sound will have no problem with what you’ve selected, that in fact it services the needs of the script better than any other possibility. Well, come on. Look it how we’re cheating on ourselves if we take the arrogant view that what we have selected is better than any other possibility.

INT: But in your homework though, that you’ll do now while your shooting, having shot the day, your homework at night will—It seems it’s two-fold. One is regarding, you called it the activities--Do--I’m really curious, will you, the night of, read the material you’re shooting the next day? Will you make notes on that in terms of anything? Will you write anything down for yourself anymore?

JS: Oh yeah, oh sure. [INT: And what’s the division?] A lot of marginal notes, you know, to help me remember certain things and you know, putting where for instance I will start the scene. What’s the camera doing? Am I on an insert to begin with and then pull back, or highlight precisely what I imagine the author would like to highlight to begin with. Always with an eye, by the way, of starting a scene at one point and ending it at a different point. Because just as we go for the growth factor in an entire script from page one to page whatever, same thing with each scene. Each scene starts a certain point and ends at a different point. [INT: Now, are you talking in terms of both the emotional progress or the, of the character as well as the visual?] As well as, yes, as well as any, anything that has to do with, organically, with the whole of that scene. It allows for, not plateauing; challenging yourself to really, specifically, think out, am I ending this thing too soon, or am I ending the scene at exactly the same point that I came in? Same thing with the film. Are we going out at the end with exactly, on the same level as what we began with? That means we’re flat, and dramatically we can’t be flat.

INT: The--I’m curious on those marginal notes, those notes don’t refer to camera. What might, you know, what might be a note that you would have written for yourself about, sort of the activity where the action of one of your performers, or…?

JS: Well sometimes I write the activity notes in, because it occurred to me the night before. Since in most instances, since I haven’t been rehearsing on our feet, haven’t had a chance to rehearse on our feet on all scenes, because of the shortness of time and because I may be working with visiting Actors; day players who haven’t even had a chance to, to introduce themselves, let alone jump into a scene. So I find, in those scenes, where I hadn’t already worked out the interesting activities that an Actor could be doing in the scene, they’re activity notes. He’s shining his shoes while he’s talking, or he’s making sunnyside, sunnyside-up eggs in the kitchen, whatever. Going for water, going for coffee, motivating a cross to do that. I look for every conceivable excuse to motivate a cross, simply because it gives me movement, and as you know, Writer’s don’t think in terms of, of what their activities, what the Actors could be doing or how many ways we can, they can make a cross and for what reason. It’s not their job anyway. You know, they’re so busy and so focused on the, the basic values of a scene and the character needs that it’s our job as the Director’s to come up with bringing it to life by, by servicing the environment that the Actors come to life in.

INT: Do you, besides activity notes, cause I’m actually kinda curious again about your homework, cause obviously you’ve done a lot of work rehearsing and when you were working with the Writer on the script, so there’s a lot of work that’s already done. But now you’re in the process of the, you know, the day-to-day shoot. The activity notes, some camera notes…Will there also be a timed, an emotional note, like, I wanna make sure she gets to this point, or is that not…?

JS: Yeah. Well, a lot of that has already been done in rehearsal. But occasionally, there’s an idea that pops in my head the night before and jot it down, involving what the emotional needs of the character could be in this instant, or because I’m meeting the Actor whose coming in, they’re flying ‘em in this afternoon for tomorrow’s work, I don’t get a chance, excuse me, to meet him or her. So it becomes a marginal note. That I can relate that to the Actor, or just coordinate it with him. He’s--Most cases, the Actors already know that. If they haven’t thought about that particular, that particular, that specific emotional element, then it becomes that much more rich for ‘em. [INT: Will you watch dailies?] Oh, yeah. [INT: And when?] At home, or in my hotel room, with a scotch in my hand, or in bed. I love it because I don’t have to rush to some musty little screening room somewhere, like the old days, and take up even more of time, energy, and what have you, and wait for the latecomers to get there or, you know, that kind of thing. In this you’re on your own.

INT: Will you take--It’s interesting ‘cause, so that while you’re shooting, you’re watching, that evening, yesterday’s work--[JS: Oh, yeah.]--Will you take notes on that or--[Oh, sure.]--Mental notes or actual written notes? What will you do?

JS: Both. Written notes, mental n--you know, if it’s necessary. And then just convey ‘em immediately to the, to the Editor, whose, I mean…There are fortunate situations, even on a location where the studio springs for the costs of bringing the Editor to the location. And because of the short post-production time that we’ve suddenly got used to because of all the fast digital work we’re doing, it really pays off for the Editor to be there, have daily conversations, if possible, and certainly look at weekly rough-cuts. [INT: So you will?] Yes. Oh, yeah. [INT: And when do you do that, during the time of shoot or will you do that in a weekend? How do you work that?] On the weekend. [INT: And, what’s your mood though, when you’re seeing that? Because, you know, the first…] Suicidal. [INT: Thank you. And how do you handle that?] [laughs] I go to my, I go to my therapist. [INT: Yeah, but what if you’re on location?] No, it, it usually confirms what I was hoping for and it, you know, occasionally it doesn’t. Occasionally you would like to have the liberty of Woody Allen’s good fortune, and go back and re-shoot. We’ve all had that experience, and we do it on every production. There’s always a scene that you wanna go back and re-shoot, for one reason or another; either because you goofed or the Actor should have been doing something else. But it’s usually, it is such a common necessity that no one should take it personally as the failings of their own creative juices, you know. [INT: Yeah.] ‘Cause it can happen.

INT: When you’re on the set, where do you place yourself? Where do you sit? Or stand?

JS: With the video assist. I--[INT: Now, has that changed for you?]--Pardon? [INT: Has that changed, I mean, where, when there was no video assist, where were you?] Then I was right, right there as close as I could be to the Actor. Which has its advantages and disadvantages. I discovered that I was allowing Actors to project more than they needed to, even though I was right there at the camera. There’s a tendency when you’re not wearing those cans to not be as aware as you are when you’re listening to it the way the soundman is listening to it. That they’re over-projecting. If they’re over-projecting, they’re over-projecting everything to the camera as well. Especially children, by the way. Just as a general tip for anybody, kids really sound like kids, the kid Actors, reciting lines, that they usually belt them out because they’ve been coached by their mothers, fathers, to be clear, and to be articulate, and to hit the back row. The wonderful advantage of that camera is that you don’t have to hit the back row ever. That it is a very intimate medium to begin with, and we have to respect that intimacy, respect it in the sense that we don’t have to sacrifice the reality that the audience is building up by over-articulating everything. The subtlety of being able to speak as we would in life between two people who are as close to each other as you and I are, is a miracle of the medium, really. It allows for such richness, and such…And this is, you know, now becoming a fairly standard level of, of work. Now you could achieve that. Some Director’s could achieve that by certainly being very close to the camera, but very close to the camera isn’t always as close to the Actor as you may think. Close to the camera is fine if the camera is on a medium-sized lens where the Actor is also close to you. But if he’s doing a long lens shot and the Actor is 500 feet away, or 50 feet away, you don’t have the intimacy that you do when you’re watching that video assist and listening to it on the, on the headphones.

INT: Now you know some Actors…I’m curious because I know how well you work with Actors. Some Actors feel that when the Director is at the video assist, or at the monitors, that somehow there’s a distance. And I’m curious how you overcome that or even whether you think that they feel it?

JS: Well first of all, I never put the video village [video monitor set up] that far behind. I get as close as it’s possible, physically, to keep from getting in the way of gobos [lighting template] and lamps and lighting and gaffer. And it just, you know, setting up the camera. So I usually, once its all—You know, once the shot is ready to shoot, I usually push everything up close. Yes, your right, there are some Actors who feel somewhat abandoned, and I assure them…They lose that the minute you come in and pick up specifically, what they may be lacking, what they may be omitting and, and where I would ask them to stop projecting as much, ‘cause they don’t need it. Sometimes it’s all you have to say. [INT: Will you—Will you actually, will you say it in that form?] I would say it in the form that this is more than you need. Now, that’s based on the assumption and certain, certainly the assurance that we don’t have to go into a discussion about the emotional needs, etcetera, etcetera of the character. More than you need becomes a sort of a short hand for, you don’t need to project it either voice-wise, trust your instrument to project the, the inner life of the character. More than you need is, becomes a sort of a, a quick, easy, liaison between you and the Actor. [INT: I like it because, personally because, I mean, it’s the first time I’ve heard it quite that way, but what I like it is, it gives the Actor, still confidence. It’s like already saying, “You’ve got it--] Yeah, exactly. [--And you don’t need to go any further,” rather than, “Don’t do something.” Do you follow what I’m saying?] Yeah, yeah.

INT: I mean, do you find yourself purposely trying to, even when you want adjust, trying to find a positive rather than a negative? [JS: Of course.] You do.

JS: Of course. Again you’re setting an atmosphere of encouragement rather than a negative atmosphere loaded with criticism. [INT: Now when you, in that process, if you’re behind a monitor, you now want to make an adjustment; will you get up and go into the set? Where, and that’s where you were.] Yeah. Oh, absolutely. The more intimate I can maintain my relationship with each Actor, the better. Because there are certain times when, if I have something critical to say, it’s best said quietly off to the side rather than for everybody’s benefit, you know.

INT: Walking onto the set, you have a new scene. Here are your Actors. It’s, you know, the seven thirty, whatever time in the morning it is. What’s the first thing that you do and how does the beginning of the day work? New scene.

JS: New scene. First of all, I don’t touch any of the instructions to DP [Director of Photography, Cinematographer] and all the people until I have a rehearsal with the Actors. Because I know that in putting it on our feet, I’m gonna find things that I could not have possibly thought of the night before, in a rigid laying down of staging possibilities. I’m working from a loose road map, basically. When I see that what I’ve already worked on works, then I’m ready for the cameramen to watch a good run-through of the rehearsal. Up to that time, I ask them to go have a long coffee. So that--Now there are some Actors who absolutely insist on clearing the set entirely. You know, because again, they feel they’re, they’re being less than satisfying in front of an audience. And I instantly clear the set for that. That’s because, again, it’s the creative the process that I’m sensitive and aware of. But always that first staging rehearsal before anything, unless its already been demonstrated for the DP [Director of Photography, Cinematographer] and I’ve already checked it out and tested it with the Actors, and it works, and there’s no doubt about it. Then we--Yeah but still, we then have to go through it for marks and for specifics, etcetera.

INT: What will you--If you’ve taken the time to work that out, whatever that--those activities are; you’re okay with it. I’m curious about the time, I mean, because of the time pressures that some, we often feel. Do you find yourself, I wanna do this relatively quickly or, I mean, is it a ten minute process? Lets say it’s a, lets say it’s a--[JS: Depends.]--three page scene.

JS: Depends. But you always, you’ve always got that little voice in the back of your head saying, “We gotta do this as quickly as possible.” And because of all the TV [television], early stages of my training, that’s always part of my conscious being, really. It’s the kind of thing that doesn’t go away, and its one of those things I had to learn when working in features, for instance. You’re still on a television pace and you don’t have to be because they expect much more on a looser, a looser schedule. And so you then learn to slow down a little bit.

INT: With this, you’ve done that rehearsal work now, you’ve brought your Cameramen in for marks, will you all—What will you do with the Cameramen then? Will you also say, “Now that I’ve seen this…” How will you discuss, lets say, you know that’s gonna take the day to shoot this, or half a day. What will you talk to your cameramen about at this particular moment now that you’re showing him or her, you know, the scene? Now what? What’s the next moment for you, with the cameraperson?

JS: Well then he has to light it. [INT: But, will you’ve discussed, lets say you haven’t had a chance beforehand to work out the scene with him. At this moment, will you say, “I see these seven, eight shots.” Where will you be at this moment?] Well, for the most part, the six or seven shots are either obvious, or if there’s a question about it in the DP’s [Director of Photography, Cinematographer] mind. And I guess more than you’d imagine, there would be a question because he has to know ahead of time whether what he’s lighting for the master is gonna get him into trouble once we go in for the coverage. So, he does need to know a little bit of what I intend to cover. Now surprisingly, what--I’ve gotten used to staging something without giving a thought to how I’m gonna cover it. So, even though--that’s usually when I’ve changed a lot of stuff, when I haven’t worked everything out the night before. So, when my AD [Assistant Director] says how many close-ups, you know, how many shots you have…There are times when I can say, “It all depends.” It all depends on how I feel once I see it all put together. And sometimes it all depends on whether we can get it in one. Sometimes you can. [INT: Well you’ve done lots of those. You’re, you know, you’re…they stand out. It’s interesting to me.]

INT: When do you know, okay, I’ve got it? When do you know I’ve spent--It’s take 15, I better find another way? How does that work for you? When you want to get it in that one or…

JS: Well even when you get it in one, you always, there’s always a little nervous guy inside saying, “Are you absolutely sure you’re not gonna kick yourself in the ass in the editing room for not having the emphasis cut that you, you should have used? Because that’s happened. That’s happened more than I’d like to admit. You can sometimes be overly clever with yourself, and push yourself into a corner. So when you shoot something in one, you better be damn sure, damn sure, that you’re not gonna be sorry later. So, sometimes, even if I have to get myself a little bit in trouble for the days work, even though I want it in one, I’ll shoot some coverage and not print it. Just to have the insurance. Because, I had gone through that agony with the Editor, with the Producers, for not having the coverage. Now, that was an outgrowth. A lot of the in-one-shots is an outgrowth of episodic TV, as a self-protective measure.