Tom Joyner (1943-2023) Chapter 5

00:00

INT: Tom [Tom Joyner], let’s get back to some specifics. In the past when you were, when you were a First AD [First Assistant Director] and when you were a UPM, how have you gone about hiring your assistants: identifying then, interviewing them, making a decision? What are your key hiring criteria for assistants and for the rest of the crew? And plea--give examples if possible.

TJ: Well, I think you want to get a sense of what their experience was; do they have enough experience to do the job? But what’s important for me is attitude. I wanna see a 'can do' attitude, I want to see someone who wants to be a team player, somebody that doesn’t run out saying, “That’s not my job,” or puts limitations on it because what’s interesting in film production--[INT: How can you eval--how can you evaluate that during an interview?] Well, just in conversation. You kind of get a sense of what they wanna do, what they don’t wanna do. You can kind of get a sense of their eagerness, their willingness to participate, and you can just kind of ask, you know, “How do you feel about doing things that may not be considered, you know, part of the normal day.” Just sort of trying to get a sense of--and it’s all based on discussion. But--and then I also try to be able to check references. I like to call, talk to two of the last employers, or two of the last people they worked for, two to three. How were they? Were they any good? Would you hire them again? Would you work with them again, and what’d you pay ‘em, you know, what was the attitude like, what was the experience like? People are getting very reluctant to give candid or denigrating referrals to people, but there’s often some buzzwords, like, “Well, who else are you thinking about,” or, “Is there anybody else on your list.” They’ll kind of give you a guideline, but you try to research them and get a sense from other people what they think, and just see how you gel with them, how you feel with them. As far as the balance of the crew, other department heads, they’re basically there to serve other keys there to serve the production, but if they’re there to serve a Production Designer or a Cinematographer [Director of Photography], that’s basically their allegiance. Again, I want to check out their qualities. And if I uncover anything that I think might be problematical, I wanna make sure I bring it to the Director of Photography or the Production Designer's attention and say, you know, “I’m--are you aware of this? Do you still wanna go forward with this person?” But nine times out of 10, you want to pretty much wanna hire the, the crew that the department heads want to hire. If a First [First Assistant Director] has a Second [Second Assistant Director] that he wants to work with and has a lot of experience with him, I pretty much go ahead and hire the person he wants to. It’s difficult to hire someone and not give them the team that they want to work with, the tools they need to do their job. But basically, I think people hire people they like to work with and have that ‘can do’ attitude, so that’s kind of what I use.

02:47

INT: What jobs have you turned down and why, and have you ever quit a job and why?

TJ: You know it’s interesting; I’ve never turned a job down. There were, there were some small jobs that I was less than impressed with and said, “Gee, do I really wanna do this?” But I’ve done it, and I’ve met some good friends on those projects. What’s interesting, I always say, “You really know, never know where your life will lead you, what opportunities will come next.” And I’ve seen more people damage their careers or damage themselves by turning a project down only to have the other bigger picture not come through or them not to be able to do it for whatever reason and… A bird in hand is the, in my opinion, is the way to go. You meet, you’ll meet a different group of people on every show, you might meet somebody on the worse possible show that you thought you never wanted to do that might become a best friend or recommend you to other projects throughout your career, so no, I’ve never turned a project down. [INT: Have you ever quit a job?] No, I don’t think I’ve ever quit a job. I had to think a minute, but I don’t recall ever quitting one. [INT: Have you ever been fired? [Laughs]] [Laughs] Yes, I have, I have. That was a political situation that was just… I was there to accommodate the Director, and it was better that I leave, so I did.

04:06

INT: Have you ever been represented by an agent?

TJ: I’ve actually been represented by agents on two occasions. Both time it was kind of a love hate relationship, “Am I really getting my money’s worth out, are they really bettering my earning ability by more than 10 percent more than what I’m paying them?” In either case, I was never really positive. On one, with one agent, I was packaged internally on a project. It was, the Director happened to be a member of that agency, the star happened to be a member of that agency, and I ended up on the project. And I think--I’m certain it was because I was part of that agency, so I was packaged on one project. But other than that one experience, I think at the level of line production I was working at, I really don’t think it’s necessary in my particular experience to be represented by an agent.

04:58

INT: Where are the most creative aspects of your work, and what do you enjoy most and…

TJ: I think the most creative aspect is getting that script, and figuring out how to solve the puzzle, whether you’re doing it from the Production Manager’s [UPM] point of view or from the Assistant Director’s point of view. It’s just, it’s breaking it down, getting a sense of what it is, and then putting that puzzle together with all the different elements involved. And then you always get blindsided by, “Oh, well we have this deal that you weren’t aware of,” or, “there’s--this Actor has limitations,” or, “there’s limitations with this set,” and it’s refining and putting that puzzle together. To me, that’s the real creative part of Production Management and Assistant Directors, getting able to build and put that schedule together, and putting it together. That’s the most creative and most fun thing. And if its done well, the shooting of the picture's the execution of it, which is…

05:50

INT: Is the relationship with the Director different when working in features versus television? And if so, how does this difference affect your interaction with the rest of the Director’s team?

TJ: The, I think that every relationship with every Director on every project, be it feature or television, is unique in itself. In television, you’re obviously working--television has always been to me a Producer’s medium, and you’re in there to get the best picture possible in a limited amount of time that you have, and the Director is there to work within those confines. In feature filmmaking, the Director’s shaping the project, more so than the Producer. But you’re still working within limitations of budget and schedule. And I think in dealing with the Director, you deal with them basically in the same way; you’re just making them aware of the facts to the limitations as you know it, and trying to understand his approach to it, and coming to an agreement in the best way to make it mesh to get the best picture possible in the amount of time.

06:46

INT: What are your priorities when you start an assignment, how do you tackle them? And I would imagine this is mostly as a Production Manager [UPM].

TJ: Well, we tackled that earlier when we mentioned the preproduction calendar. The first thing to do is, “Where are we today and when do we start shooting, what has to be done between now and then?” And then it’s a matter of prioritizing those issues. As an Assistant Director or a Production Manager [UPM], I think the first important thing to do is to obviously read the script, but do a breakdown and get a board; get it on a schedule, so you know what you’re talking about, so you can isolate the scenes, so you can talk about it intelligently as it’s going to be shot. And sometimes, if there’s a lot of visual effects or things of that nature involved, you may not be able to, to create that schedule until you get some input from a visual effects house to find out exactly what’s gonna be done, how and what manner of photography it’s gonna be done, so you need to get those visual effects things out and bid and bid back, so you can complete your schedule. But it’s all a matter of prioritizing and just…

07:47

INT: Well let’s, let’s continue on with scheduling. In general, how do you deal with the stresses of scheduling pressures, you know, you have--because the schedule is dictated both by the script, by the scope of the work, and by the budget. Are there differences in the kinds of scheduling pressures for features, for feature films and television? And be specific as you can be.

TJ: Well, I think in, once you’ve sort of locked into the number of days, in television, you’re arbitrarily kind of locked into the number days that you’re working within. The next thing is what’s your Actor's availability and what are their deals, and you’re kind of workful in that and get you in the sets and locations, and try to put all that together. Feature films, sometimes you can--you have a finite number of days, you’re, you think you’re working with, but sometimes you can rob Peter to pay Paul to create a couple of other days; maybe break out a second unit, maybe do something to create a couple of extra First Unit days or reduce scope. There’s a little bit more flexibility. There’s always that finite amount of money, but sometimes you can create an extra day or two in that schedule. But basically, once you've got your schedule it’s based on location and the talent availability and then what are you paying the talent, and what are the priorities in paying the talent, and how do you best work the schedule within those confines. [INT: Would you say that STARMAN was your most complicated schedule?] It was one of the most complicated. Well, actually it was actually fairly straightforward. It was just broken down in different locations; we had a lot of separate locations to work in. I think some of the more complicated schedules come when you start working with visual effects and big special effects, and you’re doing a lot of blue screen, and things in different locations. That, that gets a little more, a little more complicated. But STARMAN was a, was a, it had its intricacies.

09:41

INT: Now, in terms of prepping multiple locations, you know, you, you’re in Los Angeles, you’re in Las Vegas, you’re in Arizona, you’re in what? Tennessee--[TJ: Tennessee] Tennessee. How do you go about scheduling, prepping the next location? Does Production Designer go ahead and who else goes ahead and--

TJ: Well, usually the Production Designer or an art director or construction crew is out there, making sure the locations are prepped. Sometimes, generally the Production Designer, or you’ve been out there, you’ve seen the locations, and the Art Department is following through, so you’re communicating with the Art Department. Sometimes it’s necessary to have a location manager present to do that, but nine times out of 10, it’s handled by the art department in preparation, putting the set together, getting it together, getting it organized. You’re just relying on the advance work and the communications back and forth depends on what needs to be done, but--[INT: Do you ever use Assistant Production Managers or Second, Second Production Managers to hopscotch?] I actually worked as an Assistant UPM on a picture just recently that I started--it was a, actually, it was the last project I did, THE MAN ON THE CHAIR [MAN IN THE CHAIR]. Randy [Randy Turrow]--it was a low budget--[INT: Oh yeah, I saw that. It’s a great, it was a great, it was a great, what do you call it?] Did you see it? Excellent. Good. It was a low budget picture done for very little money. And I’m not certain that they’ve nailed down the distribution yet, but Randy Turrow was producing it and I came on as the First AD [First Assistant Director], because Michael Schroeder’s First was not available. He was still on another project, so I came in to prep the picture. I prepped it for three weeks and then his First became available, and I turned it over; we overlapped for a week, and I turned it over to him. But then after that, I stayed on as an Assistant UPM, allowing Randy to more flexibility, ‘cause he was Producer, UPM to get some of his off set duties taken care of. And I just kind of hung out on the set and was sort of a line producer, Assistant UPM, whatever liaison between the set and the production office--[INT: It was a very sweet movie.]--And it was great fun. It was a very, it was a very interesting movie, and they used a very interesting technique, the, reversing the camera to get those muted images, those double, double exposed images, which I thought was very powerful. [INT: Oh really?] Yeah. Yeah.

11:54

INT: What methods do you use to breakdown a project, and how does a Director’s input--how do you get the Director’s input, and how does it effect the process?

TJ: Well basically, I’ll read the script, line the script, use the same old basics, and break it--get it on a board. And then, I think, once you’ve gotten it on board, and you got a sense of what it’s gonna take--[INT: Do you do computer boards?] I do computer boards. What I generally like to do is I’ll break it down on the computer, but I have, I prefer to schedule on strips. So what I’ll do, and if I--depends on the show, but often times, I’ll have a PA [Production Assistant] with good handwriting create the strips and then I’ll schedule on the strips. There’s times I’ll do, I’ll do the strips myself, ‘cause the, creating the breakdown page on the computer or on paper is putting, is putting it in your head. You see it when you line the script and identify it. When you put it on the breakdown page, you identify it. When you put it on the strip, you identify it; those three different times really ingrains it in your head. But it’s easier to schedule on strips for me, at least. I’ve done some pictures on the computer; smaller pictures I’ve done on the computer, and it works just as well, but it’s hard to see the whole picture on a, on a small computer screen. [INT: I agree on that. And what’s the common practice now in the feature world, do--] I think most ADs [Assistant Directors] tend to schedule on the computer--[INT: In the computer as opposed to the strips?] The last couple of shows, I’ve seen the ADs have had a strip board. So they’ll make a strip board and they’ll maintain that. I still think the strip board is around, but it’s not carried to the set. Normally, they use, they’ll just use the thin horizontal strips, and those are passed out on a weekly basis.

13:38

INT: When you have a conflict between cast availability, location availability, and the budgetary pressures that each create, how do you, how do you negotiate that minefield?

TJ: Well, it, you just look at the priorities. If the deal’s already done with the Actor, you pretty much have to go with the Actor. If the deal is not being done, you can say, “These are the options, are you sure you want to go with this Actor because he’s either not available or that would make him too expensive,” you have those options to look at. But it varies case by case by case. [INT: Have you ever, have you ever gotten the company or the Producers to go back and see if you can renegotiate the Actor’s deal?] Well, I’ve certainly had situations where they haven’t closed with the Actor until they approved the schedule. There’s been certain times that you, they have closed with the Actor, and we’ve had to make a false move in order to accommodate it and then move back to it, but they realized too late that the schedule couldn’t accommodate the deal they originally made and well, I'd had to just make a false move to accommodate it and then go on with the schedule. [INT: Do you ever wonder why people make these deals without knowing what the schedule ultimately’s gonna be?] I think there’s a variety of reasons; it’s anywhere from not being aware to being pressured into it for whatever reason, or if the answer wasn’t given, you don’t have the option for the Actor. I mean, it’s kind of hard to second guess the, to second-guess it. I could be less than, less than kind, but I don’t think there's a point--[Laughs].

15:03

INT: What are some of the things that affect the scheduling of the workday, and what are the important factors in scheduling the workday?

TJ: Well, gosh. Well, obviously the time of year and the amount of daylight that you have; whether you’re interior or exterior; what your weather conditions are certainly are a factor; and the Actors involved. A lot of Actors, or just a few Actors, that certainly can be an effect on how the day will go. And if you’re dealing with special effects, again, or complicated issues, or animal or children, or all the, all the risks, all of the feature production risks of the production--[INT: So it really comes down, it really comes down to logic.] It’s logic, whatever’s the most logical way to do. I always like to attack it with a major portion of the day’s work; get into the meat of the scene. So rather than starting the major scene at the end of the day, you’d like to start it in the morning to hope to complete it, so if you’re, if you do spill anything over, it’ll be one or two shots, or perhaps a smaller sequence. You wanna be, have something major to get done for the day. But it varies; it’s horses for courses and whatever. And again, it comes up with a discussion with the Director to make sure that the Director’s on board with the way you’re scheduling. When you have opportunity to flip scenes, “Which way does he want to go? Which will work better for him?” You always want to think in terms of continuity for those make-up and hair and wardrobe changes. And interesting thing on, I just did something I’d never done before on another low budget picture--I found myself doing a couple of those in recent years. But a little picture called FEAR ITSELF, we had an Actress who had gotten together with the make-up person and had created five different stages of looks for her as she became further distressed through the picture, each of which took considerable amount of time to do. And they were painfully slow in the make-up and hair trailer, getting her from one change to another change. So normally we’d have several scenes in the bedroom, then we’d move to the hallway and then downstairs to the kitchen, and you’d shoot the sets, and do, you know, make-up and wardrobe change between sets. It took so long, I found myself scheduling the picture according to her make-up and hair changes. And I would just--the whole picture took place in the house, but the crew couldn’t under--the crew hated me, ‘cause we’re moving upstairs, downstairs, back from this room back to that room just so I could shoot out that make-up change before I went to the other one, ‘cause the crew was standing around for 45 minutes to an hour, lit, ready to go waiting for the Actress to finish her change. [INT: And this was a low budget, it--] This was a low budget, down and dirty movie. The Producer was going out of his mind. And I talked to the cameraman. I said, “This is crazy. Why are we doing this? Your crew is so fast, we can light and be done and get it.” So he agreed, and we just moved all over the house and--[INT: And when, when did you find out, at what point in prep did you find out that--] It wasn’t in prep. I’d taken over for a First [First Assistant Director] who had to leave the show. And I came and took over for him and witnessed what was going on. I said, “This isn’t working.” So I talked to the Producer and the Director and we just rescheduled it. The cameraman said, “Let’s just do it and get her out.” And we were able to start making day. They hadn’t made a day yet in the schedule prior to that.

18:00

INT: How have you dealt with radical unforeseen changes in the schedule? Now you’ve--we’ve already talked to a degree about--[TJ: That was…]--about JAWS, which is one of the ultimate ones. And what were the causes, for example: recasting, lost locations, Director preference, et cetera? Also, you know, going back to the previous one, how much, what is the range of involvement of a Director in the schedule, and how much do you spend with him sitting down and saying, “Look, this is the way I think we should do it. How do you feel about it?” Not only just the day’s work, but, you know, the 40 days, 50 days, 60 days worth of work. How does it vary from one Director to another in terms of how much they wanna get involved in the scheduling?

TJ: Well, it does vary from Director to Director, but I think the First [First Assistant Director] always has to go through that schedule with the Director day by day by day, as to which days you’re going with it and what you’re doing, in what order, and what priorities and go through it and to what degree of detail you go through depends on the Director. Some will just say, “Yeah, sure. Fine, fine, fine,” or, and some really want to go through and think about set ups, and talk it through, and really understand it. I feel those that have, that really have the picture in their head at that time will do it. But I think oftentimes when you sit to do it, the Directors really haven’t had time to put the shot list together in their head, and they really don’t--haven’t figured it out, so they don’t want to commit and they’ll rely on your expertise in that beginning schedule. But I think it’s important on a weekly basis or a daily basis or whatever just to make sure--and certainly on a daily basis, reviewing the following day to make sure that they’re aware of what you’re doing the next day, and the order you’re doing in. And then I always point them down to the advance schedule. And you see the day after that, and the day after that, and the day after that to make sure that they’re on board. So that all of a sudden, they’re not blindsided, “I didn’t know we were doing that scene then,” or, “I didn’t know this was happening.” [INT: Yeah…] It does happen occasionally, but you really need to go through that schedule with the Director, and make sure that he’s on board with what you’re doing, ‘cause things do change.

20:00

INT: What is some of the basic things that you have in the back of your mind? You know, I know, for example, you wanna bite off the biggest chunk of work in the day, you might want to schedule an Actress [Actor] who takes more make-up time a little bit later in the morning--[TJ: Not in the first shot, right.] You know, there are other--[TJ: Sure.]--techniques, you know, just basic instinctual techniques that you learn over a period of time. What are some of those?

TJ: Well, you’ve certainly addressed a couple of them. If there’s a large extra call, you don’t want to start with that in the first shot. They can, you wanna give the extras time to get in and get checked and through wardrobe, get made-up. The--I always like to have a cover set in my back pocket. If something goes wrong today, what are my options? If you sort of look at and identify what sets with the Art Department, and make sure that they are aware that, of their cover sets and they’re available to move. I can’t tell you--a couple of times I’ve had an Art Department say, “Well, yeah. I knew it was a cover set, but I never thought you’d go there.” And the set was there, but it wasn’t dressed, it wasn’t finished, and then they're scrambling at the last minute. But, but just trying to make sure that those options remain open and that they’re available and ready; that if there’s rental set dressing, it’s been committed and it’s available and it’s there, ‘cause that’s what cover sets are all about. But it’s, it’s scheduling whatever’s best for the, for the crew---[INT: Well, sometimes--]--I mean you want to think in terms of continuity wherever possible. And for the Director, you wanna think in terms of, if there’s big make-up changes, you wanna be cognizant of that--what’ll that time be. It’s sort of just working internally of the day, what makes sense to prioritize it and… [INT: Sometimes, sometimes I found that, for example, the studio wants to see the chemistry between the two stars, and the Director doesn’t want them to do important scenes for the first two or three days, because he wants to see them develop that chemistry. So how do you negotiate that…] Well, you’ll have those conversations with the, with the, with the Director. I’m a firm believer in pre-production of make-up, hair, make-up and hair tests, because I think it's important for show and tell. You’ve probably seen the Actress come to the set in the morning saying, “Well, should I wear my hair up or should I wear my hair down? Do you like this blouse here or do you like that blouse?” And the Director is trying to get his days work done, he doesn’t want to stop what he’s doing and have to sit there and accommodate the Actress, but, of course, he has to. When you have that makeup and hair test, it’s also a time to establish the wardrobe and to get all that talked about, do that show and tell, so the Actress knows what she’s gonna be wearing the next day; she knows what she’s gonna be looking like; and it helps her in her preparation. The Actress isn’t tossing and turning about all these decisions that haven’t been made yet. She’s comfortable. She knows how she’s gonna present herself, she knows what her make-up is gonna be like, she knows what her wardrobe is gonna be like, and I think she can rest and be better prepared when she comes the next morning instead of tossing and turning and creating all this tzimmes on the set. So I think make-up and show and tell--prop show and tells, make-up and hair show and tells are worth their weight in gold in pre-production. And I think it’s just an opportunity, obviously, for the cameraman to do his whatever camera tests he wants to do, but it’s more important to give a comfort level to the talent and to the Director and basically to all of the departments, so that they can be better prepared for that day.

23:11

INT: As an aside, how much--how many projects have you had where there was real rehearsal time, so that, well, you know, be it a few days or a week or whatever, so the cast can really work things out off the shooting set?

TJ: Almost every feature I’ve done has always had rehearsal time to one degree or another--as much as two weeks, sometimes a week, more often than not a week. But it’s usually two weeks for--it’s usually certainly always a week. And I generally try to plan that on the rehearsals in the afternoon. Sometimes you’ll be tech scouting in the morning, and then rehearsing in the afternoon, so you’re taking full advantage of the, of the day.

23:59

INT: Getting to the budget, what is your general philosophy in dealing with budget issues? What challenges have you faced in working with budgetary restrictions? What methods or tricks have you developed to get beyond these limits? Are there ways to enhance production values while remaining with tight budget constraints? And please give examples, and also give examples both from the point of view of First AD [First Assistant Director], you know, because he’s the guy who’s, you know, doing the breakdown sheets and arbitrarily says, “I’m gonna need 37 extras, and I’m gonna need 27 cars, and I’m gonna need,” you know, and he has no clue of what the budget might provide. So how do you, as a First [First Assistant Director], how do you deal within the constraints of a budget and then as a Production Manager [UPM], how do you do it?

TJ: Well, it’s all a matter of time and money. And you have certain--well, it reminds me of a story. Jimmy Goldstone [James Goldstone], who’s no longer with us today, on ROLLERCOASTER, did a wonderful thing in budgeting. There’s a huge section of the rollercoaster that was supposed to be built for this one particular sequence. And he went to the Production Designers and said, “Don’t, don’t build this yet. Don’t pound a nail until I tell you. Just go ahead and draw it up and have the plans ready, but don’t start construction on it.” And it was a major set. It was couple hundred thousand dollar set piece. And as we got further into production, he eventually said, “Oh, you know? I don’t need that set.” And there was $200,000 in the budget that he was able to use elsewhere. [INT: Now, but in terms of--] Back, back to your point. In terms of extras, you can think about, “Is there another way to tell the story, does it have to be on the same set, does it have to be with the same Actors, is there a way it can be combined with another scene?” These are all methods that you can adapt the script or the screenplay to have the same story told without having perhaps to go out and build another set or to make a company move. But its all time, dollars, and what can you do, how can you work it out? [INT: But as First AD coming in and, you know, doing a schedule, and doing your breakdown pages, and in some ways representing the Director, and you know that this scene is gonna require all these elements, and then you present it to the Production Manager or the Production Manager sees it or the accountant breaks it down, and it goes---] It's bigger than a breadbox. [INT: Yeah.] Well, if they come back to you with that information, its where would you like to cut? And if I’m, if I’m the First and I’ve had, already had the discussion with the Director, and he’s told me these were his physical requirements, so we put it in, I say, “Well, that’s what the Director wants.” If we can’t afford it, I suggest we go and talk to the Director and find another way to do it, or I can carry the message back and say, “It’s bigger than a breadbox, how do we pare it down?” [INT: Do you have a good example of that having happened either as a Production Manager or as a First AD?] I’m trying to think. There’s been many a time I’ve talked to a Director about other ways to try to bring it down. I’m trying to think of something specifically. Usually, when you--there’s times you’ll say, “No, I can’t cut on that one, but maybe there’s something in another scene we can cut to work it out.” But quite frankly, I can’t come up with a specific example for you now.

27:26

INT: How have you dealt with radical changes in the budget, you know, like, you’re well into prep, and suddenly they say, “We can’t afford all this.” And what causes such changes in the budget? And please give examples from projects you’ve worked on if possible.

TJ: Well, something that just popped up in mind was later on when I was working as a bond rep [representative], I had to go up on a project that was considerably bigger than what was budgeted, and they had actually blown through the contingency in pre-production and they had yet to start shooting. I had gone through the script and isolated an amount of--we had knew, we knew what a day cost was and I’d gone through the script, isolate--indicating how many, what each sequence, was it a day sequence, half a day, a third of a day, a quarter of a day, what each sequence would take to shoot. And I had gone through and identified those sequences that were not 100 percent necessary to the telling of the story. They could still tell the story without those scenes. And I put a dollar cost on them and we had to cut x number of dollars; we had to cut $300,000 out of the, out of the picture, and how did we plan to do it? And each scene had a dollar figure attached to it and I sat with the Producer and the Director and said, “Gentlemen, we can either find money elsewhere, or else we can eliminate these scenes.” And they went through and found scenes and found ways to cut it and were able to go out and finish the picture. But if you have a situation where it gets bigger, you need to get the participants in a room and to try to sit and say, “Oh, I know how to do it,” or somebody else has an idea. Unless everybody agrees to make that change, its not gonna work. You have to make people aware of the problem: “We are x number of dollars over budget. We need to find a way to get x number of dollars out of the budget.” And you may sit there and fuss and fret over the schedule, and then all of a sudden somebody says, “Well, wait. Let’s not spend the money on this Actor. Let’s hire a different Actor,” and we’ve saved it there and haven’t hurt the schedule. So it’s important, and that’s something an AD [Assistant Director] could never do and, or a Production Manager [UPM]. [INT: Have you ever, have you ever taken on the, you know, ‘cause, you know, sometimes if you have a really good collaborative experience with a Director, sometimes as an AD, you can make those suggestions, you know, just saying, “Do we really need this speaking part, do we really need...”] You can certainly do that. You can certainly do that. And a lot of times, those little bit parts are one of the first things to get shaken out. “There’s too many speaking parts in this picture; let’s get rid of some of them.” That’s certainly a way to do it. There’s ways that you can suggest, “Is there another way to rewrite this, another way to tell the story?” But it’s, you can make suggestions, but it’s important to get all the creative people aware of the situation, and see if they can come up with an idea. [INT: So as an AD, you’re first role, I would assume, is to go to the Director and say, “Hey, look. We got a problem here.”] You need to identify the problem first. Identify the problem and the scope of the problem and how do you, how do we plan to deal with it, and then go from there.

30:24

INT: Can you des--let me go back one thing. You mentioned that you had worked for a completion bonding company, can you just tell, tell us more about how that whole operation works, and I know it probably works mostly in the low to medium budget world?

TJ: Well, actually some of the bigger budget pictures--it’s interesting, a lot of the major studios like having bonds on the picture, because what it does, it frees them from having to be the bad guy. The bond company can come in and hold the line where, for whatever creative reason it might be awkward or difficult for the studio to--[INT: So just step by step, how does that work?] Well, basically what a completion bond company does when it goes to bond a picture, it reviews the script, schedule, and budget, and then all the ancillary… It wants to make sure that the insurance is in place, that the, all the contracts, if there’s any, if there’s any Actors that are being insured as additional insured, that means the picture--or if there’s any Actors that are married to the project, in other words, the picture can’t be completed and delivered without them, make sure that their contracts are physically signed prior to completion of principle photography or prior to closing the bond. If they’re very...That all the Actors’ contracts are in order, all the, all the location agreements, all the rental agreements are all in accordance with the budget. And then you look at budget and say, “Is there enough time to do it?” In your opinion, “Is there enough time in the schedule, is the picture well enough budgeted, are these the people who have the talent to do it.” And you generally get all the players in the room and you get them all to agree--[INT: And who are these players?] That would be the Producer, and the Director, and the Production Manager, [UPM], and First AD [First Assistant Director] often, and the accountant. And get them all to verify that to their best of their knowledge, this picture can be done in this amount of time. And if they all sign off on that and all agree with that, and there’s an adequate 10 percent contingency, your job is basically done. You track the project as it’s being done. And the only time that they’re gonna hear from you is if they don’t do what they said they’re gonna do. [INT: And how do you--] If they start falling behind or they start having problems, then you have to step in and take whatever steps you have to take to rectify the situation. [INT: So are you, are you copied every day with the production reports and call sheets and… But do you--] Oh absolutely, absolutely. And you’re--daily conversations with the line producer, with the Production Manager, with the accountant just to, because sometimes you get different stories from each of them. [INT: But do you, but you don’t hang out on the set unless there’s a real problem?] That’s correct. If the project looks like it’s really getting in trouble, I might go to the set and spend some time on the set [INT: Now let me, let me say you’re in this meeting with all the principles and they’re saying, “Yes we can do this for this kind of money” and based upon your 30 years knowledge in the business, and you look at the scheduling, you look at the budget, and you’re saying to yourself, “Not a chance.”] If I don’t believe that they can make this day, if I don’t think this day is makeable--[INT: I’m talking about the whole show.] Well, I’ll look at it one day at a time. If the day is not makeable, I’ll ask them to justify how they plan to get that day done. I’ll say--I’ll go through and estimate in my mind the number of set ups that I think it’s gonna take to shoot this day and just how many hours in a day are there? And there's you figure 40 minutes a setup, and, you know, or just give--it doesn’t fit. “Now explain to me how you intent to do this,” and I’ll challenge the Director on that. And if he'll say, "Well, you know, maybe that day is a little over heavy, so well, maybe we should add a day to the schedule or two days to the schedule," or whatever it needs to take, but you've got to go through the entire schedule with a, with a production to make sure they're all on board with what they can do and that you're comfortable that they can do it.

34:01

INT: Has your experience been, in terms of budget, that they’re budget issues that create significant conflicts between a Director and a Producer? Have you had experience in situations like that where, where, you know, other than JAWS, where you’re in the middle of shooting, and you’re either behind schedule for whatever reason and it causes a lot of conflict?

TJ: I’m--not really, not really... I think there’s certain pressures of schedule and budget, but usually the Producer’s aware of what the elements are that the Director is dealing with and they’re usually aware at the time. I don’t know that it causes a conflict. It’s just, it’s a recognition of the facts the way they are. The situation--but I don’t see there’s necessarily a conflict between the Producer and the Director. They’re all working towards the same end: getting the work done. But I don’t necessarily see it as a conflict there.

35:04

INT: Hiring and firing. [TJ: Hiring and firing.] Have you ever hired a Director on a project? [TJ: No. Never hire a Director.] Have you ever hired a Director of Photography [Cinematographer]?

TJ: Actually, with those, I’ve actually looked at those questions. I’ve--and a Production Designer. I’ve negotiated their deals, but I’ve never really participated in the merits of the choice of the Production Designer. That’s always been a Producer, Director choice. But with the, with the Cinematographer and the Production Designer, I certainly hired them, but that’s basically in just--in so far as negotiating the deals. [INT: We’ve already discussed about hiring Assistants and Assistant Directors, and I’m sure you’ve hired UPMs, but is there anything distinctly different about hiring a UPM versus hiring a First [First Assistant Director] or hiring a Second [Second Unit Director]?] Not really. It’s checking references. You might check references on a UPM maybe a little closer than you would on a First, ‘cause the First is there basically because that’s who the Director wanted. But just checking, checking references. [INT: Even though it’s the Director’s choice, you know, I generally check references on him too.] Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. [INT: Because I wanna know what to expect.]

36:16

INT: Have you ever had to fire either a crewmember or crewmembers? And can you go through the whole process of--it’s a very difficult decision to make and how do you go about it, you know, like it’s one thing to do it in prep, which is difficult enough, but then if you’re in the middle of shooting, and it really comes down to the fact, “Yes, we have to replace this person or this crew or maybe the entire crew,” how do you go about doing that?

TJ: The only thing that comes to mind is an individual I had to let go due to a substance abuse problem. And that was just fairly cut and dry. We just did it and he wasn’t back the next day and over and done with, gone--[INT: Well, in this day and age with substance abuse, don’t you have to, like, recommend them to a treatment program or…] This was before that. [INT: But nowadays, but nowadays, isn’t there, isn’t there now…] You know, I’m not sure quite frankly. I haven’t had to do that in recent years. It just came to--it was brought to my attention, it was verified, and we just dealt with it. And I think dealing it that way was at least to everybody’s, it was the least damaging to anybody. I don’t know if he had a, if his habit was such that it was detrimental. I think it was just abusing it on the set. [INT: I think there’s a lot less substance abuse today than 20 years ago.] I would agree. I would definitely agree. [INT: You know, it used to be like the five o’clock bourbon was broke--you know, you broke out the bourbon at five o’clock for the Director and the Cameraman and Gaffer. And I don’t think you see, you don’t see any of that anymore.] I don’t think you see that anymore, no. No. Didn’t say it didn’t happen, we just said you didn’t see it anymore. [Laughs] [INT: I think it’s less the case nowadays.] Much, much less the case.